What resources would you recommend to learn course management?

[CountLippe]

That’s not always the case.
I would rather have an 80yd shot than 40yds.
You can spin and control the longer shot imo.
But we’re not all the same.

Are you pretty good at the 80 yard shot then? I think you need a pretty good up and down ratio to make this worthwhile.

Assuming the 40 yard lay up is no more difficult than the 80 yarder, my theory is that whilst you may get a more consistent dispersion playing from the 80 yards having practiced it, your more likely to knock it stiff from 40yards or closer albeit less consistently. A 15 foot putt is similar to a 30-40 foot putt in that for most golfers its a 2 putt.

Add in the fact that for me (cat 2 golfer) i'm unlikely to take more than 3 to get down from 40 yards, I'd have thought all things being equal, being as close as possible is preferable to a set yardage. Therefore practice time spent developing feel from different yardages would benefit me more.

As you correctly say though, we're not all the same!

 

[clubchamp98]

Are you pretty good at the 80 yard shot then? I think you need a pretty good up and down ratio to make this worthwhile.

Assuming the 40 yard lay up is no more difficult than the 80 yarder, my theory is that whilst you may get a more consistent dispersion playing from the 80 yards having practiced it, your more likely to knock it stiff from 40yards or closer albeit less consistently. A 15 foot putt is similar to a 30-40 foot putt in that for most golfers its a 2 putt.

Add in the fact that for me (cat 2 golfer) i'm unlikely to take more than 3 to get down from 40 yards, I'd have thought all things being equal, being as close as possible is preferable to a set yardage. Therefore practice time spent developing feel from different yardages would benefit me more.

As you correctly say though, we're not all the same!

I am a 6 h/ cap and in my humble opinion I am good at 80yds.
If you watch the pros they would never leave themselves 40yds.
So you have a flag behind a bunker ,nice firm green do you think you can stop a 40yd shot?
Could you stop a 80yd shot?
My point is from 80yds you can control it more spin wise.
This does depend on your skill set.
So it’s a shot you can hit anytime even when just going for the middle of the green.

 

[CountLippe]

Agreed you will be able to control the spin more from 80 yards.
If every 80 or 40 yard shot was to a pin behind a bunker on a firm green then I agree also.

My point was that if your not good enough to consistently hit your 80 yard shot close say within 8-10 feet, then from a practical point of view your not benefiting from the extra spin. If the ball finished 30+ feet away rather than 15 feet because you couldn't control the spin its still a 2 putt.

That's why I was asking about the up and down ratio. Are there enough shots a round requiring this degree of control to concentrate your game on the 80 yard shot?

I'm genuinely interested in this. When summer conditions come around I think I'll play a practice round and drop a ball from 80 yards and throw another a random number of yards forward and see which comes out best at the end! (Hopefully no-one watching me playing 2 balls into a green).

 

[Curls]

I recommend you go to YouTube and watch “Golf Sidekick”. He plays courses that are not short, but rarely hits driver on more than 40% of his tee shots and shoots low 70’s. He talks you through his thinking on each hole and how to take your ego of having to mash it down the fairway 300 yards to score well. And he’s entertaining to watch.

I agree I really like his videos and get his humour, but nailing a 2 iron 240 dead straight off the tee every time isn't in most peolple's lockers. He's long, plays off ~4, and while I subscribe to his stress free golf approach it goes back to my earlier point. If you can get it on the green from 170 with a 7 iron why wouldn't you play safe off the tee?! People who average 130 with a 7 iron (and I'd say that's a lot of folk who think their 7 iron goes 150) don't have the luxury, 230 is a great drive, not a safe iron.

That said, this is worth a watch because he takes a higher handicap out and caddies for him. Even if you just watch the first hole you'll get the drfit.

Way of the playa

 

[Curls]

Agreed you will be able to control the spin more from 80 yards.
If every 80 or 40 yard shot was to a pin behind a bunker on a firm green then I agree also.

My point was that if your not good enough to consistently hit your 80 yard shot close say within 8-10 feet, then from a practical point of view your not benefiting from the extra spin. If the ball finished 30+ feet away rather than 15 feet because you couldn't control the spin its still a 2 putt.

That's why I was asking about the up and down ratio. Are there enough shots a round requiring this degree of control to concentrate your game on the 80 yard shot?

I'm genuinely interested in this. When summer conditions come around I think I'll play a practice round and drop a ball from 80 yards and throw another a random number of yards forward and see which comes out best at the end! (Hopefully no-one watching me playing 2 balls into a green).

Yeah when I was a higher handicap I couldn't spin the ball dead from distance like I can now, and I'd probably have backed myself to get it closer from 40 than 80. Like I say strategy all depends where your game is, a good pro will guide you in an on-the-course lesson

 

[clubchamp98]

Agreed you will be able to control the spin more from 80 yards.
If every 80 or 40 yard shot was to a pin behind a bunker on a firm green then I agree also.

My point was that if your not good enough to consistently hit your 80 yard shot close say within 8-10 feet, then from a practical point of view your not benefiting from the extra spin. If the ball finished 30+ feet away rather than 15 feet because you couldn't control the spin its still a 2 putt.

That's why I was asking about the up and down ratio. Are there enough shots a round requiring this degree of control to concentrate your game on the 80 yard shot?

I'm genuinely interested in this. When summer conditions come around I think I'll play a practice round and drop a ball from 80 yards and throw another a random number of yards forward and see which comes out best at the end! (Hopefully no-one watching me playing 2 balls into a green).

While I think what you are saying makes sense for a lot of players.
I was advising more on the course management side of the question not the up and down ratio.
I was stating for a lot of players left with 200 yd+ into a green this is how I deal with it.
To take a possible double off the card.
My method is if I know I can control a ball from 80yds I lay up to that .
If your best/ favourite yardage is 40 yds that’s fine.
As you say experience will tell you what your best yardage is.
But in my experience low ams and pros would very rarely leave themselves 40yds it’s a very awkward length.

 

[clubchamp98]

Yeah when I was a higher handicap I couldn't spin the ball dead from distance like I can now, and I'd probably have backed myself to get it closer from 40 than 80. Like I say strategy all depends where your game is, a good pro will guide you in an on-the-course lesson

There lies the answer I think !
Most people don’t play to their limit and will try and hit a 200+ shot and get a double where if they took the time to work out a plan from this yardage 7iron and wedge + 2 putt they would score better
You realised your skill level wasn’t sufficient so played accordingly.
But as you have improved your plan has changed.
That’s how to do it.

 

[Orikoru]

Golf Sidekick on YouTube has a lot of videos on this. He is a bit 'ideal worldy' in the sense that he kind of assumes your distance control and aiming is on point. But he has a lot of good ideas on course management anyway, things like giving yourself the shot you want into the green, missing on the side of the green where it's easier to get up and down from, and using a club you're confident and comfortable with off the tee.

One thing you can do easily that helps a huge amount is get a free GPS app on your phone. You can get an overview of every hole as you play it, and as long as you know your club yardages, you can pinpoint what club you need to lay up short of a hazard, or to carry it, and it also shows you what yardage that will leave you into the green. So it's ideal from that respect. I use the Hole 19 app for this.

 

[pendodave]

For information... From PGA tour data, so I think we can assume that the sample size and accuracy are reliable...
Proximity to the hole of the 100th ranked player in each category (couldn't find the average, but 100 is approx the median)

75-100 yds : 17ft 3in
50-75 yds : 14ft
30-50 yds : 12ft
20-30 yds : 9ft

Now I realise that there might be special occasions when one might want to vary this, but on average it's best to be closer.
I also realise that we are not tour pros, but I think that the difference between us and pros get more marked the further away we get, so if anything chopper golfers like us would gain even more benefit from being closer.

 

[Reemul]

For information... From PGA tour data, so I think we can assume that the sample size and accuracy are reliable...
Proximity to the hole of the 100th ranked player in each category (couldn't find the average, but 100 is approx the median)

75-100 yds : 17ft 3in
50-75 yds : 14ft
30-50 yds : 12ft
20-30 yds : 9ft

Now I realise that there might be special occasions when one might want to vary this, but on average it's best to be closer.
I also realise that we are not tour pros, but I think that the difference between us and pros get more marked the further away we get, so if anything chopper golfers like us would gain even more benefit from being closer.

I would rather be 80 yards than 40 as well. 40 is fine but it's all about how hard to hit that wedge, 80 yards is still close and a nice standard swing on a gap wedge for me which stops quickly. I dislike the 50 - 30 yard zone and try to avoid hitting in to it unless I really have to. I really enjoy shots between 110 and 75 yards.

To add my son who is 13 loves those 50-20 yard shots, plays the most amazing shots, he does try to show me how to do them but mentally it takes a lot to open the club face so wide and hit it so aggressively. I am mister sure and steady and a lot of the game and shots preferred is based on your comfort zone and results from those zones.

 

[pendodave]

What is it about am golfers and stats?????
No no.... The earth is flat, I'm convinced....

 

[Sports_Fanatic]

There are a fair few golf monthly videos on you tube around course management including par 3, 4 and 5s taken individually.

Yes it won't necessarily beat experimenting on the course but it does give other ideas on practice and approach (e.g. deliberate miss game - where you have to miss in most favourable place then try to get up and down so your assessing a hole, traffic light idea for pin locations, theory of always playing a shot you're 7/8 out of 10 comfortable with so not overstretching etc).

 

[Deleted member 21258]

What is it about am golfers and stats?????
No no.... The earth is flat, I'm convinced....

Whilst I don't disagree with you generally, you do have to take into account that some people are just rubbish nearer the green(for example someone with the putting/chipping yips).

Can think of a couple of people I have played with, who are better further away from the green. As a result some people are always going to disagree with the pro stats and they are right to.

Me personally, I would always try to get as close as possible to the green, as the closer I get to the green more chance of up/down(unless there are reasons not to, like water in that area).

 

[CountLippe]

Yeah when I was a higher handicap I couldn't spin the ball dead from distance like I can now, and I'd probably have backed myself to get it closer from 40 than 80. Like I say strategy all depends where your game is, a good pro will guide you in an on-the-course lesson

At the moment I play off 8 so I'm reasonably competent but not elite. I have a pretty good short game so I've never really felt I would have benefit from concentrating limited practice time on a stock 80 yard shot.
It's getting difficult to improve my game further as I'm probably at my limit ball striking wise, and don't really have time to work on my game so practice is normally spent staying in tune. Maybe this is something worth trying. I suppose to get lower one part of my game has to be excellent and an 80 yard shot is the lowest hanging fruit.

 

[CountLippe]

While I think what you are saying makes sense for a lot of players.
I was advising more on the course management side of the question not the up and down ratio.

As you say experience will tell you what your best yardage is.
.

Yeah, I need to work out what that it is and play to it!

 

[CliveW]

One of the best tips I got about course management was to imagine the hole from green to tee and where you would want to play your shots from.

 

[pendodave]

Whilst I don't disagree with you generally, you do have to take into account that some people are just rubbish nearer the green(for example someone with the putting/chipping yips).

Can think of a couple of people I have played with, who are better further away from the green. As a result some people are always going to disagree with the pro stats and they are right to.

Me personally, I would always try to get as close as possible to the green, as the closer I get to the green more chance of up/down(unless there are reasons not to, like water in that area).

I also play every now again with a guy who is a good ball striker but does something truly horrible when hitting short pitches, so I know what you mean.
Most people aren't like this though. And course management is about recognising what the actual chances are of getting the best score, not relying on gut feelings.
TV announcers perpetuate this myth, they always blather on about favourite lay up distances, but there's not a single player on tour that doesn't hit it closer to the hole if they start off closer.

 

[pendodave]

At the moment I play off 8 so I'm reasonably competent but not elite. I have a pretty good short game so I've never really felt I would have benefit from concentrating limited practice time on a stock 80 yard shot.
It's getting difficult to improve my game further as I'm probably at my limit ball striking wise, and don't really have time to work on my game so practice is normally spent staying in tune. Maybe this is something worth trying. I suppose to get lower one part of my game has to be excellent and an 80 yard shot is the lowest hanging fruit.

So here's the thing.... However hard you practice, you'll never get to the point where you get it to a one putt from that distance. Even PGA tour players don't.
And unless you're quite poor (which you're obviously not), you'll probably be inside 3 putt range. So however much you practice you'll probably not decrease your score by a single shot.
From 20 yards however, a reasonably accomplished player might have a decent chance of getting their average miss from (say) 20 ft to 10 ft. This gives a genuine chance of reducing your score. So time well invested.
To improve your score, you need to either reduce 3 putts (so get inside 40ft) or increase 1 putts (get inside 10 ft of closer). Anything else is just window dressing.

 

[Curls]

At the moment I play off 8 so I'm reasonably competent but not elite. I have a pretty good short game so I've never really felt I would have benefit from concentrating limited practice time on a stock 80 yard shot.
It's getting difficult to improve my game further as I'm probably at my limit ball striking wise, and don't really have time to work on my game so practice is normally spent staying in tune. Maybe this is something worth trying. I suppose to get lower one part of my game has to be excellent and an 80 yard shot is the lowest hanging fruit.

Doesn't have to be 80, could be 90 or 100, any wedge you can make a fast enough swing and decent enough contact to stop it more or less where it lands. It takes several variables out of the equation. But at the same time if you're off 8 (fair play, I didn't know your h/c so my example was looking back at when I was starting out off a lot more!) I'm not advocating laying up all the time, and hardly ever on par 4s unless you've made a dogs dinner of the drive. On par 5s with protected greens mostly. Even on long par 4s if you set out with a 3 shot strategy you're opening the door to disaster imo. Fine if you've 18 shots to play with but not 8. And that's why course management is so subjective cos you know your game and maybe you're more likely to get up and down from 30!

So here's the thing.... However hard you practice, you'll never get to the point where you get it to a one putt from that distance. Even PGA tour players don't.
And unless you're quite poor (which you're obviously not), you'll probably be inside 3 putt range. So however much you practice you'll probably not decrease your score by a single shot.
From 20 yards however, a reasonably accomplished player might have a decent chance of getting their average miss from (say) 20 ft to 10 ft. This gives a genuine chance of reducing your score. So time well invested.
To improve your score, you need to either reduce 3 putts (so get inside 40ft) or increase 1 putts (get inside 10 ft of closer). Anything else is just window dressing.

I get what you're saying, but some days it feels like everything within 15 feet drops and another you can't hole out for toffee, so as much as the stats average out over time for me you play to give yourself as many looks for birdie as you can, and on the days your putter is hot, you shoot the lights out. Handicaps generally drop in chunks, really (relatively) low rounds, with a lot of mediocrity in between.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

At the moment I play off 8 so I'm reasonably competent but not elite. I have a pretty good short game so I've never really felt I would have benefit from concentrating limited practice time on a stock 80 yard shot.
It's getting difficult to improve my game further as I'm probably at my limit ball striking wise, and don't really have time to work on my game so practice is normally spent staying in tune. Maybe this is something worth trying. I suppose to get lower one part of my game has to be excellent and an 80 yard shot is the lowest hanging fruit.

I'm also off 8 - and my short game is that which I need to improve. I can get there or thereabouts in regulation most of the time - but just don't get down in two near often enough.