JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
LOL.... you really need to try playing off 3 for a while and see how much FUN it is
Come to think of it, I'd like to be playing off 3 for a while :angry:
What Laws Would You Change?!
- Thread starter lofty1019
- Start date
LOL.... you really need to try playing off 3 for a while and see how much FUN it is
Come to think of it, I'd like to be playing off 3 for a while :angry:
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Foxholer
Blackballed
Real problem is that Zach (and you JO?) have 2 mutually exclusive goals.
1. To become as good as you can be (measured by handicap)
2. To win (handicapped) competitions.
Now if 2 simply became (non-handicapped) competitions, it would all be fine!
So having a Scratch competition in the same round as the Handicap one would solve that.
WRT Using strokes. That's actually smart course management! For an improving player, there has to come a point/situation where that approach has to be over-ridden - and that's course management too. Now that (course management) is a huge part of the game. (ask Stanley. McIlroy or Van de Velde about their lapses). So don't knock the rabbits that manage the course well.
1. To become as good as you can be (measured by handicap)
2. To win (handicapped) competitions.
Now if 2 simply became (non-handicapped) competitions, it would all be fine!
So having a Scratch competition in the same round as the Handicap one would solve that.
WRT Using strokes. That's actually smart course management! For an improving player, there has to come a point/situation where that approach has to be over-ridden - and that's course management too. Now that (course management) is a huge part of the game. (ask Stanley. McIlroy or Van de Velde about their lapses). So don't knock the rabbits that manage the course well.
Pro Zach
Assistant Pro
Please explain why,when one player is allowed to take off 20 shots and another is only allowed to take off 0 they are not playing by different rules.
I personally know young/old/healthy/unhealthy/male/female/rich/poor people who play chess, badminton, football, rugby, cricket, bowls, run marathons and enter iron man competitions. Non of these games are handicapped. So please stop suggesting that it is the handicap system that allows this to happen.
Using the argument that it is for the good of everyone often just hides your own behavior.You play off a steady 16. So why do you take 16 shots off your score?How do you justify you deserve to do this? Is what you do fair to a young hard working scratch golfer? Scratch golfers work hard and have more ability than you. Why do you think you should have an equal chance of winning? Sod what everyone else is doing. Why do you think you should get 16 shots more than a scratch golfer?
bluewolf
Money List Winner
Whilst I can see the logic in your argument, I would like to point out that The sports you have mentioned all have divisions that group people of similar abilities together. Things like Triathlons, and especially Ironman also have the cache of competing, and finishing as a goal. Completing a round of golf is not an endurance event, nor is it something particularly difficult to do. If every town had 20/30 golf courses then you could group players of matched abilities together. All the Cat 1's could play together on one course. All the Cat 2's on another etc etc. (Un)fortunately, the number of courses is limited and therefore ways have to be found to group all the players together.
The H'capping system does this. If I get beat by a 24 H'capper, then I accept that someone of lesser (apologies for the term) ability has had a better day than me. Personally, I can think of nothing worse than playing every comp against a group of over serious Cat 1 golfers. Give me a mixed group every time..
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
the prizes would be won by 3 chaps at my club under the age of 25. no one else would get a look in. this guy has clearly got the mentals !
bluewolf
Money List Winner
Not really. His argument does hold water. But it would not improve the enjoyment of 90% of club golfers. It would in fact, make it worse. Every sport has divisions which make competing in that sport more fun for all. How many people would play football if the local league did not have several divisions. Sport at the amateur level is about enjoyment. If you make it less enjoyable, then people will do something else....
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
For me it's a bit of both. Funnily enough (and yes I know it's a sport) I'm not all that bothered about winning, I far prefer playing to the best of my abilities and if putting me off 3/4 makes me try harder then so be it. I recognise how hard (and gifted) people have to work to maintain a decent h/cap, and for me it's a respect I have for those players that takes away the 'competitive edge' for me.. I don't want to win with shots. I know I certainly don't DESERVE to win even if I do win as I know I rarely practice... it's a fluke, a good round perhaps, but everything just went well,... repeating it is what counts to me which is why the guys that seem to come in with 46 points EVERY SINGLE COMPETITION kinda irritates me. I mean how lucky do you need to be to come in 10 shots less than your h/cap in a comp?
I'd HAPPILY play off 3/4 handicap... so does that make me a better 'sportsman' than someone off 18 who doesn't want to?
Games against my mates don't really count for me in this debate/scenario/arguement/whatever.. they can give me as many shots as they like and I'll give them shots if they want to test me... ...that's a FUN round, and doesn't take my loathing of practice to give me an advantage of a potentially inflated h/cap.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Just had a quick check through my club's last dozen or so comps - all off Yellows.
38 points (or equivalent) seemed to be the winning score for most.
Of the scores over 39, 2 41s were by Junior/Intermediates (so improvers) a 40 by a Senior and a 44 by someone off scratch (now -0.9! Course is 72/73 (White) or 71/71 (Yellow) so not 'easy'.
I challenge you to provide similar stats showing the same players are getting 46 points (adjusted for SSS vs Par) in consecutive comps - and are not Juniors/Intermediates (where rapid improvements do happen) or where are serious practicers! I don't believe it happens (without a proper reason).
And the new 'Exceptional Scores' adjustment will help the 'rapid improvers' get to their true level quicker too.
Having said all that, It is quite reasonable (to me) that low 40s can be achieved by players in the 11-15 range (but different ones) to win comps - just unable to predict who! At that level, the expectation is to par 1/3 of holes. On a really good day, I believe most of them are capable of par-ing 2/3 of holes - and that doesn't consider the possibility of a couple of birdies from 'lucky' approaches.
So all this hot air about 3/4 handicap is just that imo! If you want a truly level playing field, then Scratch is the way. Get a Scratch element added to regular comps is the way.
Edit:
And just checked all the way back to 2009 for the was 1 'anomoly' (out of about 90 medals!) I remember. 45pts won; 43 2nd and my 40pts was 3rd. CSS was still 71 (36 points) rather than the 70 (37 pts) that 'easy conditions' allows. The winner of that comp is the big hitting abberrant mate who also won a comp about 7 months later with 40pts. His other scores were 17, 25 at the other end and generally mid 20s to low 30s. Definitely a 'Wild Willie' to my 'Steady Eddie'!
38 points (or equivalent) seemed to be the winning score for most.
Of the scores over 39, 2 41s were by Junior/Intermediates (so improvers) a 40 by a Senior and a 44 by someone off scratch (now -0.9! Course is 72/73 (White) or 71/71 (Yellow) so not 'easy'.
I challenge you to provide similar stats showing the same players are getting 46 points (adjusted for SSS vs Par) in consecutive comps - and are not Juniors/Intermediates (where rapid improvements do happen) or where are serious practicers! I don't believe it happens (without a proper reason).
And the new 'Exceptional Scores' adjustment will help the 'rapid improvers' get to their true level quicker too.
Having said all that, It is quite reasonable (to me) that low 40s can be achieved by players in the 11-15 range (but different ones) to win comps - just unable to predict who! At that level, the expectation is to par 1/3 of holes. On a really good day, I believe most of them are capable of par-ing 2/3 of holes - and that doesn't consider the possibility of a couple of birdies from 'lucky' approaches.
So all this hot air about 3/4 handicap is just that imo! If you want a truly level playing field, then Scratch is the way. Get a Scratch element added to regular comps is the way.
Edit:
And just checked all the way back to 2009 for the was 1 'anomoly' (out of about 90 medals!) I remember. 45pts won; 43 2nd and my 40pts was 3rd. CSS was still 71 (36 points) rather than the 70 (37 pts) that 'easy conditions' allows. The winner of that comp is the big hitting abberrant mate who also won a comp about 7 months later with 40pts. His other scores were 17, 25 at the other end and generally mid 20s to low 30s. Definitely a 'Wild Willie' to my 'Steady Eddie'!
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sona
Assistant Pro
To save time I'd extend the lateral hazard rule to apply to out of bounds as well.
Yes please
Foxholer
Blackballed
To save time I'd extend the lateral hazard rule to apply to out of bounds as well.
You mean the Water Hazard Rule. Lateral (Water) Hazard has 1 extra option - allowing drop on either side of hazard - which would hardly be an option for Out of Bounds.
Occasionally play that 'rule' for lost ball in bounce games. Pace of play does seem to improve. Wouldn't favour it for 'proper' golf though.
Tiger
Money List Winner
I'm going to buck the trend and say that I think ProZach (like the name) has a point. My missus is a runner and regularly pays to enter races from short cross country races through to marathons. She is not too bad a runner but will never win one of these races. But what she wants to do is beat people around or slightly better than her level, but most importantly beat her previous personal best time for that distance. What drives her is a desire to get better. She is happiest when she sets a PB.
I'll be honest and say that when I play a skins game I derive minimal satisfaction when I win a skin because of the number of shots I had on a hole. But I do get a lot of satisfaction when I take a skin with a gross birdie, especially if it is against a much better player (S/F).
Our club has two trophies for the club champs. One is for the best nett score and one is for the best gross score. Now I'm not saying I would be nonplussed if I won the net trophy, but my ambition is to win the gross competition. The handicap system certainly has it's merits but there are times that I feel that the 'better' golfers are hard done by. Admittedly they probably had their time in the winners circle when their handicap was coming down, but in my heart of hearts I really want to win a competition by taking fewer strokes than everyone else.
I'll be honest and say that when I play a skins game I derive minimal satisfaction when I win a skin because of the number of shots I had on a hole. But I do get a lot of satisfaction when I take a skin with a gross birdie, especially if it is against a much better player (S/F).
Our club has two trophies for the club champs. One is for the best nett score and one is for the best gross score. Now I'm not saying I would be nonplussed if I won the net trophy, but my ambition is to win the gross competition. The handicap system certainly has it's merits but there are times that I feel that the 'better' golfers are hard done by. Admittedly they probably had their time in the winners circle when their handicap was coming down, but in my heart of hearts I really want to win a competition by taking fewer strokes than everyone else.
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Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
So why do we have a handicapping system at all? What's the point?
Lets just play Scratch against each other and see how long Golf takes to disappear from ordinary life...
I play with a 14 and a 23 handicapper (Big Bro Fragger) most weeks.
Even if I have a bad day I'll beat Fragger on gross score virtually every time. Why? Because I'm better than he is.
If he was going to get beaten every week - that's every - will he bother to pitch up?
I wouldn't.
If I was playing a +3 handicapper every week off scratch it would become pretty boring pretty quickly - I'd be better off going solo.
The Handicapping system is there so that people of all abilities can compete against each other. If people want to play scratch competitions then there are many that will accommodate you.
Quite frankly, what you've written so far suggests you understand very little about golf at club level, between players of differing abilities. These people can't all spend time practicing. Everyone hopes to get better that's a given but very few - even with huge amounts of time, coaching and effort - will get anywhere near scratch or even Cat1.
Other Sports can do what they like, if people want to enter competitions they know they have no chance of winning that's up to them.
We do it our way.
Our way is to provide a means by which anyone, regardless of ability, can win certain competitions.
You don't want that at Elite/Pro level - you want the best to win. But at our level it's important to provide the poorer player with as much chance of winning as the good player off single figures. If you didn't, people really wouldn't play - and if you think they would then I'm afraid you are mistaken.
Dreamer2
Head Pro
/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\
I agree ,,,well said
for me its should be law you can play throw if there is no queuing or your 1or2 players behind a 4 ball
if they don't have the descent courtesy to let you play throw simply shout 4 then play & they have to wait for you to play throw
I agree ,,,well said
for me its should be law you can play throw if there is no queuing or your 1or2 players behind a 4 ball
if they don't have the descent courtesy to let you play throw simply shout 4 then play & they have to wait for you to play throw
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I agree totally with Imurg. I think this athletics thing in particular is a bit of smoke and mirrors to substantiate the argument. Most athletic events I entered and still watch on TV have some degree of handicapping based on age, certainly at club level and so comparitive to golf from that perspective. It makes perfect sense as a 50 year old athlete simply can't compete with a 18 year old and so why expect him to try.
Its the same in golf. Why should a 24 handicapper be penalised because they are new, can't be asked to practice or get lessons or even because they simply aren't very god, not be given the chance to play on the level playing field their handicap gives them and so can peg it up against a scratch player or pro and theoretically give them a god contest
Its the same in golf. Why should a 24 handicapper be penalised because they are new, can't be asked to practice or get lessons or even because they simply aren't very god, not be given the chance to play on the level playing field their handicap gives them and so can peg it up against a scratch player or pro and theoretically give them a god contest
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Weird, I don't see them putting ankle weights on Usain Bolt so the rest of the field have a chance.
Imurg - understand your post but we're not talking (only) about friendly games against Fragger.... we'd all happily give him lots of shots!
Imurg - understand your post but we're not talking (only) about friendly games against Fragger.... we'd all happily give him lots of shots!
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
Weird, I don't see them putting ankle weights on Usain Bolt so the rest of the field have a chance.
Imurg - understand your post but we're not talking (only) about friendly games against Fragger.... we'd all happily give him lots of shots!
But bolt is a pro, as is tiger, and it is in theory a level playing field for pros.
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Which brings me back to my post about having divisions. Single figure golfers are better players and should play against equal fields. The 10-18's should play against each other and the 19-28's likewise. It's the BEST way to have golf competitive and at it's most fair.
It would be no fun to beat Bolt if he had to push a wheelbarrow of concrete at the same time... and I doubt he'd get much fun out of it either.
rosecott
Money List Winner
I did, just the once, and it was as far from fun as you could get. In those days my handicap was 18 but our Seniors had a Seniors handicap system which entailed a 3 shot chop if you won in a non-qualifier and played with that handicap in non-qualifiers until the end of a 6-month cycle. On the last day of the 6-month cycle, my Seniors handicap was 3 and we played a Bogey. The stark facts are 15 bogeys on the holes with no shot = minus 15, and total cock-ups on the 3 holes with a shot = another minus 3.
End result of Bogey = minus 18, a record destined never to be beaten (and the subject is always raised when we play a Bogey).
And you thought playing off 3 wasn't fun!
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
But even then there's a huge gulf between a 9.4'er and a 0.6'er but you'd have them playing Scratch..
Same gulf between a 9.6 and a 17.4.
To play those of equal ability you'd have to have 9 divisions all the way from scratch to 28 with a maximum of 2 shots covering each division.
And, not being disrespectful to 28'ers but there can be huge gulf between 28 and 27....
What's fair about a 9.4 taking on a 0.6 Scratch...?
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