What is the easiest course?

[patricks148]

I was talking to two you assistant pro from one of the clubs in Inverness and both thought this course, Par 69 SSS 69 was a hard course, for instance harder than my home club which is par 71 SSS 73. they also mentioned that not many of their low handicappers play in medals because it was hard!!!

I thought that the SSS was a guide on difficulty and so would say a a higher SSS was the harder course.

admittedly the SSS is getting done away with and the new slope rating would come in 2020, this would highlight again the same difference..

So anyone else agree with them? is a course with the same par/sss harder than one with a difference?

 

[Imurg]

I guess, on paper, you're right. If SSS is over par then it should be a trickier course than one with SSS equal to par.
But then you have to take into account the relative pars and length of holes.
The par 69 course may have some longer par 4s compared to a couple of shorter par 5s on the par 71
I don't think it's a cut and dried as we might think - what ever is?

 

[HankMarvin]

Yep the one with the same SSS & CSS will be the harder for lower handicap players

 

[patricks148]

Yep the one with the same SSS & CSS will be the harder for lower handicap players

why would that be?? i wouldn't say that was the case esp as there is 500 yards difference in the yardages of these two courses.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

SSS is determined by a set criteria on paper - it doesn’t automatically suggest that a course is harder than another if the gap between par and SSS is larger

For handicap players the course with the lower SSS they will find harder to get cut on where as ones with higher SSS you will find players will prefer because it’s easier to get a HC cut

But overall all courses will have their difficulty , some will be longer and the shorter players will struggle and those courses I have noticed the SSS is higher but some shorter courses will have a different degree of difficulty with the way the holes are set out and maybe tighter etc but because the length isn’t there they get knocked down on SSS ( not too much though )

And then there is the pars - a par 69 may only have one par 5 and lots of strong par 4’s where as the par 71 could have two or three reachable par 5’s

 

[patricks148]

I guess, on paper, you're right. If SSS is over par then it should be a trickier course than one with SSS equal to par.
But then you have to take into account the relative pars and length of holes.
The par 69 course may have some longer par 4s compared to a couple of shorter par 5s on the par 71
I don't think it's a cut and dried as we might think - what ever is?

not the case with these two course, the one which is 69 has two par 4's that are 480 off the yellow and par 5 off the white at 490.

And when we move to the slope rating its going to be the same as with SSS, if i go and play there i will be off a lower handicap won't i?

 

[Grant85]

I was talking to two you assistant pro from one of the clubs in Inverness and both thought this course, Par 69 SSS 69 was a hard course, for instance harder than my home club which is par 71 SSS 73. they also mentioned that not many of their low handicappers play in medals because it was hard!!!

I thought that the SSS was a guide on difficulty and so would say a a higher SSS was the harder course.

admittedly the SSS is getting done away with and the new slope rating would come in 2020, this would highlight again the same difference..

So anyone else agree with them? is a course with the same par/sss harder than one with a difference?

A few points.

SSS may well be a guide to difficulty, but it is a fairly broad one with SSS rarely +2 or -2 away from Par, and almost always 1 either side of Par.

I suppose technically it shouldn't make a difference if the logic works itself out, it should be the same level of difficulty for handicapping purposes to be 1 under your handicap or within buffer. With one course you get 4 more shots to play with.

Also, not sure how much wind and weather works itself out in the SSS? Must be that it assumes 'average' conditions? Maybe why your links course has an SSS above par Patrick?
This should work well in CSS - assuming enough people play and the weather is relatively consistent throughout the day, but SSS is fixed.

Plus, set up can be a huge factor in difficulty, again, which SSS doesn't really take into account and a lot of clubs will pro-actively plan to set their course up far more difficult than normal for a big competition or a finals day. Tees can all be back, rough can be left for a few weeks, greens sped right up, pins can be in awkward places. In this situation, the CSS could easily be up a stroke or two for a big Open comp, but SSS would be the same if you happened to play a supplementary in the evening or the next morning.

 

[patricks148]

A few points.

SSS may well be a guide to difficulty, but it is a fairly broad one with SSS rarely +2 or -2 away from Par, and almost always 1 either side of Par.

I suppose technically it shouldn't make a difference if the logic works itself out, it should be the same level of difficulty for handicapping purposes to be 1 under your handicap or within buffer. With one course you get 4 more shots to play with.

Also, not sure how much wind and weather works itself out in the SSS? Must be that it assumes 'average' conditions? Maybe why your links course has an SSS above par Patrick?
This should work well in CSS - assuming enough people play and the weather is relatively consistent throughout the day, but SSS is fixed.

Plus, set up can be a huge factor in difficulty, again, which SSS doesn't really take into account and a lot of clubs will pro-actively plan to set their course up far more difficult than normal for a big competition or a finals day. Tees can all be back, rough can be left for a few weeks, greens sped right up, pins can be in awkward places. In this situation, the CSS could easily be up a stroke or two for a big Open comp, but SSS would be the same if you happened to play a supplementary in the evening or the next morning.

according to them the CSS is about the same as SSS, ive played a couple of opens there before and the CSS has always been par and once is was under, so i just don't get its harder?

 

[Parmo]

Roundhay Muni in Leeds is Par 70 SSS 65

 

[Grant85]

according to them the CSS is about the same as SSS, ive played a couple of opens there before and the CSS has always been par and once is was under, so i just don't get its harder?

It's definately not harder to shoot par, but may be harder to play under your handicap / maintain handicap etc.

Like I said, it's a relatively blunt instrument for measuring how difficult a course is.

 

[Jacko_G]

I personally don't think that the CSS takes in "conditions" enough especially links. What is average wind speed for such a varying factor of links golf? The wind changes with the tide, it picks up, it drops, it gusts it can even swing 180 degrees between holes at times.

As I have said often though the course rating system really is a palava.

Technically your gaff should be harder as it is rated that a scratch golfer would shoot +2 whereas the other course rates that they should be able to shoot par, however that is a very simplified interpretation of the CSS system.

 

[patricks148]

I personally don't think that the CSS takes in "conditions" enough especially links. What is average wind speed for such a varying factor of links golf? The wind changes with the tide, it picks up, it drops, it gusts it can even swing 180 degrees between holes at times.

As I have said often though the course rating system really is a palava.

Technically your gaff should be harder as it is rated that a scratch golfer would shoot +2 whereas the other course rates that they should be able to shoot par, however that is a very simplified interpretation of the CSS system.

yes jacko, thats what i was saying to them that on paper a scratch golfer (which They were talking about) would shoot par and at Nairn shoot +2 which is reflected in the current system, so struggling to understand why they and Spanky think its harder??

 

[Jacko_G]

yes jacko, thats what i was saying to them that on paper a scratch golfer (which They were talking about) would shoot par and at Nairn shoot +2 which is reflected in the current system, so struggling to understand why they and Spanky think its harder??

Basically because you have an extra two shots "to play with", whether that is only a phycological advantage or an actual advantage I don't know but I do know I will feel more confident playing a course which technically gives me an extra two shots above the par.

 

[patricks148]

Basically because you have an extra two shots "to play with", whether that is only a phycological advantage or an actual advantage I don't know but I do know I will feel more confident playing a course which technically gives me an extra two shots above the par.

in reality its 3 with your 1 shot buffer as well, rather than 1 over at the Inversneck course. But surly you get those because the course is harder??

 

[duncan mackie]

A few points.

SSS may well be a guide to difficulty, but it is a fairly broad one with SSS rarely +2 or -2 away from Par, and almost always 1 either side of Par.

I suppose technically it shouldn't make a difference if the logic works itself out, it should be the same level of difficulty for handicapping purposes to be 1 under your handicap or within buffer. With one course you get 4 more shots to play with.

...

We have 65/69, 69/72 & 74/72 combinations so it isn't that rare 🤔

That aside I completely agree with your stated view that it shouldn't be technically different; but that the reality is that some course play easier to some players (not always handicap based, but at elite levels there tend to be more consistent views/experiences.

Don't even need to go as far as different courses - we are currently running comps where players can choose which tees (and therefore which SSS/par combination they wish to play - 69/72 and 71/72 being the options currently) they play. Needless to say most players have a strong preference as to which is better suited to their game - and they aren't all the same! Fundamentally a function of the broad brush approach of SSS you reference. However, for the elite players this won't change going forward, as Patrick highlights.