The challenges facing England football...

[Tiger]

Following some of the comments on the England v Italy thread I thought I'd start a sensible thread about the inherent challenges in the English game. I'm hoping for an intelligent discussion

Football threads on here always make me chuckle. Some of the comments do reveal a lack of understanding as to why there is a problem in this country.

The FA appointed Hodgson for what he achieved in Sweden. He effectively helped rebuild Swedish football and helped them progress to where they are today. He is here for six years, not to transform the National team into world beaters, but to oversee the development of a new youth football structure. That's a big reason why he got the nod over Redknapp.

The fundamental problems start with our scouting network. Players are identified at a young age on their physical attributes: size, strength, stamina and speed. This is the first factor before they look at technical ability. Then the coaching focuses on high tempo, physical football. Players with a bit of artistry get 'nailed early doors' to 'let them know they're in a game'. Expression is criticised and mistakes lambasted so young players become afraid of the ball, panic and revert to a long ball forward. Better safe than sorry.

Rather than an legion of qualified coaches teaching technical ability we have an army of macho dads teaching thuggery or kick and rush football. Young players aren't taught to think/move off the ball. The art of ticky tacka football is not in the passer but the receivers who work hard off the ball to give the person on the ball an easy option.

I recommend when Spain play Portugal you watch the players off the ball and look at the number of short range options they have.

Next come the tactics. Over here we are still wedded to 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 neither of which works. The two most recent English managers who achieved any sort of success were Bobby Robson and Terry Venables. No surprise they both favoured more continental systems and had a coaching CV that included a stint at Barcelona.

Even in the Premier League Arsenal, City, United and Spurs all play 4-5-1.

But I am optimistic. The FA have finally realised they need to invest in grassroots football and players like Rooney, Wilshere, Ox, Rodwell and Hart give me hope that as well as being hard to beat we may spring a few surprises in the future...


Sorry for the rant but I get frustrated by armchair comments that are wide of the mark

 

[smange]

Agree with everything you say mate although I will spread the problem to the whole of the UK and Ireland where I now live.

When I watch my sons training or playing nowadays I find it really frustrating seeing what skills they have being coached out of them nearly.

In the case of my youngest and his school team, I no longer go to watch because it pains me to see him, as a decent midfield player who I have always encouraged to play football on the ground and get his head up and look for a pass and to make runs looking for passes, being played at centre half because he is very good in the air for his age and being told to clear the ball whenever he gets it instead of being encouraged to play a pass in case he gives it away. He hates it as well and gets no enjoyment out of playing for the school.

I take my hat off to the people who run local boys clubs and the teachers who give up their own free time for the school team but we need these people to have some sort of coaching qualifications, as well as taking the competitiveness out of primary school teams and younger boys teams and just get them playing and enjoying playing football instead of this fear of losing a match.

We need to get away from this idea of "good old fashioned British football". I mean what has it won since 1966 and even then would England have won that world cup if it had been outside of their own country? A question we will never know the answer to but I certainly have my doubts.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Not sure how much debate you'll stimulate when the OP pretty much nails it. Can't argue with anything there really.

I recently read an article about a player dumped from Celtic's youth system for being too small. Sorry to use an example from Scottish football but many of the issues are the same. It's quite an interesting read so I dug out a link.

BTW - the guy in question now plays for Partick Thistle and is 6' 4".

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/footba...ck-thistle-star-mark-mcguigan-86908-23897156/

 

[Aztecs27]

Thank you!!!!!!!

 

[Liverbirdie]

Tiger, agree with all of it in principle, but when do footy fans/administrators/coaches look 10 years down the line and past their own vested interests.

One thing that always gets me is the way some people talk about this after England exit from a major championship. Not everyone has the national side's success as there number 1 priority. I don't. I am more bothered about my club, the premiership's entertainment value than a bi-annual tournament that England take part in most of the time.

People talk about grass roots coaching, winter breaks, less club games etc all from the national side's point of view. Ok that is their right and maybe their main interest, unfortunately not everyone has the same view though.

I don't mind a winter break in January (not xmas) as long as the sides dont go away on lucrative friendlies, but only for club football's reasons (bit of a mid-season rest). I also think that all internationals should be played in a single month, so they have to nurse player's injuries, rotate etc, rather than have them for one game, and pass them back to the clubs with injuries.

I agree on the kid's coaching in the main, but one of the great things about Premiership football is the mix of styles, the pace of the game, the tackling (and that has got more powder puff in the last 10 years), the shock results, the passion. I love it.

I think kids should play with smaller goals, smaller pitches, shown how to pass to feet, not scared to lose the ball, play in tight areas etc.

However, when it gets to finals, higher age groups, professional football the British Psyche takes over (dont get caught in possession, hit the big man, 4-4-2,tall,solid centre halves etc).

I would love to see England and more prem sides playing more football on the ground and it does start with the kids, but I wouldn't want some of the great stuff we see in the Premiership every week sacrificed for it in total, and just for an England side.

Maybe not de-rigeur opinions, but that's my view.

 

[GreiginFife]

Agree Tiger, very well put.
One additional issue that I personally have is with over inflated prices. Kids like Henderson & co that have talent and ability, of that there is no doubt, but to attach a price tag of such magnitude and with that a proportionate weight of expectation that it makes it hugely difficult for these kids (lets face it, that's what they are) to meet that expectation and too easily they become labelled flops, or worse, failures.
As an outsider to the English game it did seem for a while that if a kid was decent AND English you could add an additional 5 or 6 mil to his price tag - not sure if that's the case, but it was the perception I got from what I saw.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Agree Tiger, very well put.
One additional issue that I personally have is with over inflated prices. Kids like Henderson & co that have talent and ability, of that there is no doubt, but to attach a price tag of such magnitude and with that a proportionate weight of expectation that it makes it hugely difficult for these kids (lets face it, that's what they are) to meet that expectation and too easily they become labelled flops, or worse, failures.
As an outsider to the English game it did seem for a while that if a kid was decent AND English you could add an additional 5 or 6 mil to his price tag - not sure if that's the case, but it was the perception I got from what I saw.

More like 10 mill, at least when it came to Liverpool putting bids in. More fool us, Henderson, Downing and Caroll, as only 3 recent examples.

That is the market though and Chelsea, Man U and city have also had this in the last 10 years, except they bought good players with their money.

I'm sure it's the same in Scotland, goo local boy going to another Scottish club, Rangers or Celtic then come in and the price trebles.

 

[GreiginFife]

More like 10 mill, at least when it came to Liverpool putting bids in. More fool us, Henderson, Downing and Caroll, as only 3 recent examples.

That is the market though and Chelsea, Man U and city have also had this in the last 10 years, except they bought good players with their money.

I'm sure it's the same in Scotland, goo local boy going to another Scottish club, Rangers or Celtic then come in and the price trebles.

Indeed it does happen elsewhere, however not to the extent that I watched in England (cash rich league). If the weight of expectation on a young man is too great, chances are he will bow to that pressure. Occasionally you will get 1 or 2 that live up to the tag but is that really enough.

If it's "the market" that's causing it then the sooner it bursts the better for the sake of the game world wide - IMO.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Indeed it does happen elsewhere, however not to the extent that I watched in England (cash rich league). If the weight of expectation on a young man is too great, chances are he will bow to that pressure. Occasionally you will get 1 or 2 that live up to the tag but is that really enough.

If it's "the market" that's causing it then the sooner it bursts the better for the sake of the game world wide - IMO.

I agree with you Greg, and when the balloon goes up, it will all come crashing down. It may actually be for the best as player's wages are killing the game.

However when a young lad who cost nothing does well at Fulham/Wigan/even Everton - City/United/Chelsea coma along offer 25 million (keeps the club going/helps pay off the bank/builds a new stand/helps buy 4 other players). The player quadruples his wages, is then in the next England squad, plays in the champions league, wins trophies.

It's going to happen 95% of the time, apart from the likes of Le Tissier and Gerrard can't think of many times it doesn't. That's life.

 

[GreiginFife]

I agree with you Greg, and when the balloon goes up, it will all come crashing down. It may actually be for the best as player's wages are killing the game.

However when a young lad who cost nothing does well at Fulham/Wigan/even Everton - City/United/Chelsea coma along offer 25 million (keeps the club going/helps pay off the bank/builds a new stand/helps buy 4 other players). The player quadruples his wages, is then in the next England squad, plays in the champions league, wins trophies.

It's going to happen 95% of the time, apart from the likes of Le Tissier and Gerrard can't think of many times it doesn't. That's life.

Absolutely, I don't disagree that this is the way of things. It's the impact that it has that I'm making comment on. While it happens the same problems will exist. Other sports do not suffer the same problems that I can see. Your Rugby squad is quite good on a consistent basis, cricket squad etc, none of these suffer from overly inflated expectation driven by price tags nor egos.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Absolutely, I don't disagree that this is the way of things. It's the impact that it has that I'm making comment on. While it happens the same problems will exist. Other sports do not suffer the same problems that I can see. Your Rugby squad is quite good on a consistent basis, cricket squad etc, none of these suffer from overly inflated expectation driven by price tags nor egos.

I read a brilliant article on American football years ago, which explained that although it is one of the biggest sports in America with billion pound stadiums, razzammatazz, massive wages etc, it is run along near communist lines.

The worst teams getting the first draft of college picks, wage ceilings and many more things that I can't remember. No-one dominates american football for longer than 5 years, generally.

I'l try to look it up.

 

[Hooper]

I agree with everything you say Tiger. Very well put.
I coached U10s/11s in a different country where I gained coaching qualifications. I did it becuase I had 2 boys of a age where is was a good excuse to spend more time with them and doing something I enjoyed. It was one of the best experiences of my life and I felt very priviledged to be asked. All through my time doing it I had the full support of the club, parents and children.
I came back to live in the "home of football" and coaching here is a very different experience. Some of my oberservations are:
- There is too much emphasis on winning and not developing the kids as footballers reagrdless of their future potential. This includes parents and some are a nightmare. The clubs need to tackle this with a zero tolerance policy to any parent interfering with the coaching/playing. I feel there is alot of good potential coaches out there that are being put off.
- U12s still playing on full sized pitches which promotes the kick and rush football we have all observed and some children can go large parts of the game without a touch. The promotion to 9 a-side on 1/2 and 3/4 sized pitches has been met with much resistance although I do believe this is beginning to change. Smaller pitches means empahasis on ball control, quick accurate small to medium sized passing, every player gets more touches, physical advantages reduced, etc..etc..It took 9 games into the season before I saw a goalie from any team throw the ball out to one of his defenders instead of kicking it into the oppponents half.
- Training sessions that include large parts based on fitness and not enough on fundamentals skills. Fitness can be acquired while incorporating these skills yet this still escapes some coaches.
My understanding is that the FA are the custodians of our grassroots football so it is them who should be installing the changes that are required and start promoting a different brand of football for our youngsters to learn. If we produce the players they will get picked. I still believe we can develop footballers that can compete at the highest level but it will take a shift of seismic proportions in the way we teach junior and youth football in this country.
There is a saying in american politics "the american people get the president they deserve". For us we get the England team we deserve.

 

[Robobum]

Some decent points in the thread........

The example of the kid at Celtic is skewed. There comes a point when the academy staff have to make a decision on whether the kids are offered a contract. It is a judgment call on their ability to develop into a first team player. That will include a call on how they see any possible physical development. Just to say he was too short wouldn't have been correct but it sounds better in the paper especially as he is now a giant. You also have to consider the difference to what Celtic are looking for and what Partick are looking for.......one is shopping in Lidls, the other is in the charity shop!

My issue with any coaching revolution is based purely around cost.

To get a coaching certificate that is worth the paper it's written on you need a Level 2 (UEFA B) license. This will sting you for just shy of £400, as well as relieving you of a week to attend the course/ assesments/ refreshers etc etc.

Now, that's fine if you can afford the time and cash and want to stay current and put it to good use, but where does that leave the school teacher or well meaning parent without whom a bunch of kids will not be playing football??

Even for Level 1 coaches (basically a CRB check and instruction on how to pump the balls up), it still makes a £200 hole in your pocket!!!

I'd like to see, as part of the commitment to grass roots, a lot more training sessions put on by Prem/ Pro clubs that are open to the public to view - perhaps ticket only to those who register to a progression path of coaching. Some coach the coaches time on a weekly basis. If possible, make these things open to parents also even if they have no intention of coaching. Arming them with some limited knowledge of what their son/ daughter's coach is trying to achieve will (maybe) stop them screaming at little Jonny to whack it up the field.

If all else fails......."if in doubt.........

 

[FairwayDodger]

The example of the kid at Celtic is skewed. There comes a point when the academy staff have to make a decision on whether the kids are offered a contract. It is a judgment call on their ability to develop into a first team player. That will include a call on how they see any possible physical development. Just to say he was too short wouldn't have been correct but it sounds better in the paper especially as he is now a giant. You also have to consider the difference to what Celtic are looking for and what Partick are looking for.......one is shopping in Lidls, the other is in the charity shop!

Yeah, that's fair enough and it's also true to say that Celtic have brought through some good players shorter than the 5' 10" that lad was when they canned him. Just a good angle for the paper I guess.

 

[Hooper]

This is a very good point. I was shocked how much it is to attend these courses. Also if I am not mistaken the level 2 is a week off work as well. Not realistic for some people. However I would prefer the accessibility of coach training to come from the FA as we can then have a consistent approach. Not sure I would want to promote some of The Championship's brand of football to the young. ;-)

 

[Robobum]

Yeah, that's fair enough and it's also true to say that Celtic have brought through some good players shorter than the 5' 10" that lad was when they canned him. Just a good angle for the paper I guess.

To be honest, I think the kid maybe on drugs!!!!

What else would explain this quote??...."My focus is on getting Thistle to the SPL – we are a sleeping giant and should be in the top flight" :s

 

[FairwayDodger]

To be honest, I think the kid maybe on drugs!!!!

What else would explain this quote??...."My focus is on getting Thistle to the SPL – we are a sleeping giant and should be in the top flight" :s

2nd biggest club in Glasgow nowadays.

....just thought I'd say it before someone else did!

 

[Tiger]

Very good point about the qualification costs Robo. How football can be so expensive with the economies of scale the sport boasts is beyond me.

Also good shout on exorbitant fees for homegrown talent. I think Spain have more than double the number of qualified coaches we have. With any luck they'll invest in subsidising courses, meaning more quality homegrown players deflating the market rate

 

[Hooper]

Very good point about the qualification costs Robo. How football can be so expensive with the economies of scale the sport boasts is beyond me.

Also good shout on exorbitant fees for homegrown talent. I think Spain have more than double the number of qualified coaches we have. With any luck they'll invest in subsidising courses, meaning more quality homegrown players deflating the market rate

It's worse than that. From the guardian...

2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's B, A and Pro badges, its top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995, Italy 29,420, Germany 34,970 and France 17,588

 

[Paul_Stewart]

I read a brilliant article on American football years ago, which explained that although it is one of the biggest sports in America with billion pound stadiums, razzammatazz, massive wages etc, it is run along near communist lines.

The worst teams getting the first draft of college picks, wage ceilings and many more things that I can't remember. No-one dominates american football for longer than 5 years, generally.

I'l try to look it up.

Err rather generalistic there and I guess it was written by one of the tabloid journos who know nothing about the NFL.