The Bishop's View

Liverpoolphil said:
Yep the church can speak up on anything it wishes

No problems with that

It seems the issue Hogan has is the reaction from a very small number to them speaking out

I believe that Hogan is looking for a religious debate
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If a debate is what I seek then it would be more along the lines of why most wouldn't tell Unions to keep out of a debate on immigration when Unions - like the churches - only represent a minority and are thought by some to have out of date views. There does seem to be a negative reaction from quite a lot of folks when the church leaders put their heads above the parapet.

Maybe I misinterpret what I see, read and hear. Maybe most folks are more than happy to listen to and consider carefully the views of the church leaders on such matters. I would be delighted if that were the case and I was wrong.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
If a debate is what I seek then it would be more along the lines of why most wouldn't tell Unions to keep out of a debate on immigration when Unions - like the churches - only represent a minority and are thought by some to have out of date views. There does seem to be a negative reaction from quite a lot of folks when the church leaders put their heads above the parapet.

Maybe I misinterpret what I see, read and hear. Maybe most folks are more than happy to listen to and consider carefully the views of the church leaders on such matters. I would be delighted if that were the case and I was wrong.
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Have the unions said anything about what the PM should do about immigration ?

Again you keep saying things like "quite a lot" when actually it is very tiny amount of people

I expect most people don't care what the church say and just ignore it and don't bother commenting

Hence why no one commented on a story until you mentioned it
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Hence why no one commented on a story until you mentioned it
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Somebody has to post something to start a discussion surely?
You yourself knew nothing about it till the op.
Did you then research what the letter said before you commented? Or are you basing all your comments on this thread?
 
pauldj42 said:
Somebody has to post something to start a discussion surely?
You yourself knew nothing about it till the op.
Did you then research what the letter said before you commented? Or are you basing all your comments on this thread?
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I had a quick look at the BBC story - saw that there was just over a thousand comments and that was it

Hogan appears to suggesting there was a massive public outcry in response to the church sending a letter to the PM where as I believe there is no massive public outcry bar a small minority and it's prob not registered in many people's lives
 
Liverpoolphil said:
I had a quick look at the BBC story - saw that there was just over a thousand comments and that was it

Hogan appears to suggesting there was a massive public outcry in response to the church sending a letter to the PM where as I believe there is no massive public outcry bar a small minority and it's prob not registered in many people's lives
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So him starting the thread and you reading the article has you a bit more informed, surely thst's part of what these forums are about😃
 
pauldj42 said:
You stated you thought he wanted a religious debate and nobody had commented on the story, how could they if someone doesn't start it. Just sayin😃
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My point was that the story was that insignificant to most people that no one mentioned it when the news broke yesterday until someone who is religious brought it up z
 
Liverpoolphil said:
My point was that the story was that insignificant to most people that no one mentioned it when the news broke yesterday until someone who is religious brought it up z
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And that's his right, nobody mentioned Big Ben till I brought it up as it bothered me, got some honest feedback and points from both side, if people don't like the answers they get when posting then unlucky, our opinions are like a£seholes, we've all got one.
 
The Unions have commented many times on immigrant workers devaluing jobs, leading to lower rates of pay.

And we could say that the turn outs at local and general elections make politics an irrelevance.

Someone who has access to the media, like the bishop, speaking out on welfare issues should be applauded. I don't agree with a number of things the church says and does but I welcome the debate.
 
pauldj42 said:
And that's his right, nobody mentioned Big Ben till I brought it up as it bothered me, got some honest feedback and points from both side, if people don't like the answers they get when posting then unlucky, our opinions are like a£seholes, we've all got one.
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No one said he couldn't mention it ?
 
Liverpoolphil said:
My point was that the story was that insignificant to most people that no one mentioned it when the news broke yesterday until someone who is religious brought it up z
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What has Hogie's religion got to do with him bringing it up. You criticise Delc, rightly so, for his bigoted slant then do the very same to Hogie over his religion.

Very, very disappointing
 
Hobbit said:
What has Hogie's religion got to do with him bringing it up. You criticise Delc, rightly so, for his bigoted slant then do the very same to Hogie over his religion.

Very, very disappointing
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Because it's a subject that would be on the radar of someone who is religious hence why Hogan brought the subject up

I don't think unless I have missed something that I have critisized Hogan for being religious ?
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Because it's a subject that would be on the radar of someone who is religious hence why Hogan brought the subject up

I don't think unless I have missed something that I have critisized Hogan for being religious ?
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But you did imply that the op was possibly an excuse for him to start a religious debate.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Have the unions said anything about what the PM should do about immigration ?

Again you keep saying things like "quite a lot" when actually it is very tiny amount of people

I expect most people don't care what the church say and just ignore it and don't bother commenting

Hence why no one commented on a story until you mentioned it
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Yes of course the unions have talked about immigration - for instance in respect of delivery of many public service, as well as the impact that immigration is thought to have on depressing wages.

And your point here is exactly what I was asking - why?

Are the 'most people' you refer to so closed to churches that they won't even listen to what they say about the difficult issues of today - issues to which easy answers do not readily present themselves and for which anything surely that might help politicians, government and each one of us to form a view would be welcome - not rejected without proper consideration and reflection upon. I am not sure there are any other parts or groups in society that provoke this reaction and am am interested in why that is the case, if as you suggest it is the case.
 
Any religion greeting about a lack of aid always makes me think of an old Oi! song by The Blood - Megalomaniac......

.....You tell us to give up our wealth to those who are
without
To all you's third world victims with your famines and
your drought
But tell me Johnny Paul my son, if I should make so
bold
Why don't ya donate just one of your robes of silk and
gold
 
CheltenhamHacker said:
The Catholic church, the CofE, and largely the Christian churches. I understand that in the UK, the number of believers who associate with these churches are declining (although I don't have any stats to back this up, to hand).
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They are all very different. Most (in England) won't realise how different the non-conformist/presbyterian denominations are from churches such as the CoE and the Catholic Church, and how different their views on many issues are. But they are all lumped together as the 'church organisation'.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
And your point here is exactly what I was asking - why?

Are the 'most people' you refer to so closed to churches that they won't even listen to what they say about the difficult issues of today - issues to which easy answers do not readily present themselves and for which anything surely that might help politicians, government and each one of us to form a view would be welcome - not rejected without proper consideration and reflection upon. I am not sure there are any other parts or groups in society that provoke this reaction and am am interested in why that is the case, if as you suggest it is the case.
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I think the answer to that question is "yes". In the eyes of many, myself included, the church has been discredited so often that nothing it says can be taken at face value. That's even if you can ignore that the whole basis for its existence is a lie (but let's not go off on that particular tangent).

I don't disagree with this particular line from the church but I disagree with it so vehemently on other issues that I am unable to be anything other than deeply suspicious of its motives.

I understand why right minded people in the church might be disappointed by that but can you understand how the non-religious have been driven to that point? Do you ever read comment from the archbishop or other senior clergy and despair about the intolerance of the organisation?
 
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