Teeing Ground and Advice

[oltimer]

Matty - you`ve answered your own question - R-8-1/16 you quote, states information on the rules is NOT advice.

see Definition of Advice - Information on the Rules is NOT advice.

Rule 9 shows a penalty for giving incorrect information on the Rules but I cannot find any rule that applies a penalty for giving correct rules information.

 

[Matty]

Given that a player who takes advice from anyone is penalised

Sorry, just noticed this and I disagree.

Rule 8-1 states:

During a stipulated round, a player must not:

a.

give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner, or

b.

ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.

So, you cannot ask for advice as player. But you cannot offer it unsolicited as a player either. And that's critical in deciding when and how I tell someone they are about to break a rule, is that information only and always? Or is it advice? Can it be both depending on how I say it?

 

[Matty]

Matty - you`ve answered your own question - R-8-1/16 you quote, states information on the rules is NOT advice.

see Definition of Advice - Information on the Rules is NOT advice.

Rule 9 shows a penalty for giving incorrect information on the Rules but I cannot find any rule that applies a penalty for giving correct rules information.

Yes, I think I'm getting there. I still feel wording could be important though so it cannot be construed as 'advice' by anyone. So I don't think I'll be saying "I wouldn't hit it from there if I was you", but something more a statement of fact like "You are on the wrong tee".

 

[rulefan]

Yes, I think I'm getting there. I still feel wording could be important though so it cannot be construed as 'advice' by anyone. So I don't think I'll be saying "I wouldn't hit it from there if I was you", but something more a statement of fact like "You are on the wrong tee".

You are on the right track. Certainly the latter is perfectly correct.

But the situation re the former needs more.

One extreme - advice - "I wouldn't play in that direction"
The other - rules information - "You are in front of the tee markers"

In between depends on more than just the words.

"I wouldn't hit it from there if I was you"
- without any thing further - advice
- pointing clearly at the tee markers - rules
- adding "Look where the tee markers are" - rules

A common situation is when taking relief. Your fellow competitor is in a puddle and is looking bewildered. You may ask him if he wishes to know what his options are. If he says yes, you may spell them out. But you cannot give any hint as to which may be the best choice. Like "If you drop at the npr + 1cl, that tree will be in the way" or "If you go back on the flagline, you can get over those bushes"

 

[oltimer]

nobody`s going to penalise you for "preventing" another from breaking any of the rules - its called sportsmanship

 

[chrisd]

That's not really applicable though is it? There is no referee though as was the case last weekend.

Not in your specific case but if a referee can advise someone that they are about to break a rule so can anyone.

 

[Foxholer]

Yes, I think I'm getting there. I still feel wording could be important though so it cannot be construed as 'advice' by anyone. So I don't think I'll be saying "I wouldn't hit it from there if I was you", but something more a statement of fact like "You are on the wrong tee".

It's important to realise that Golf has its own Definitions of certain terms and 'Advice' is certainly one of them! It specifically excludes 'information about The Rules', which, in general language, might otherwise be considered 'advice'.

A very clear difference between Definitions in The Rules and 'normal' language is the ability to be holding 2 (identically marked) balls, both of which are 'Lost' according to The Rules, but clearly not 'lost' physically!

 

[atticusfinch]

If you are giving information on the rules, it is allowed even if it is otherwise a suggestion on how to play the hole. By definition, it is not advice and is allowed. This is what is meant by reading the rules literally.

EG...pointing to (not touching) the line of putt (before putting) suggests how to play the hole, but it is allowed. R.8-2b.

 

[atticusfinch]

Trying to reduce the rules to a simple rule of thumb is often misleading. Your example draws a thin line that suggests any fact is allowed because it is not advice. But doesn't it depend on how you determine the fact? If you get distance (a fact) with a laser (absent the LR), it may not be advice but is not allowed.

 

[Matty]

Trying to reduce the rules to a simple rule of thumb is often misleading. Your example draws a thin line that suggests any fact is allowed because it is not advice. But doesn't it depend on how you determine the fact? If you get distance (a fact) with a laser (absent the LR), it may not be advice but is not allowed.

I'm not sure if this was directed at me (the OP) but this is exactly the type of issue I'm trying to understand.

Some on here seem to be saying that any discussion about The Rules is information and not advice. But it seems to me from some of the Decisions (8-1/16) that what you say and how you say it are both very important in assessing if it's "advice" or "information".

I think I understand now what I would need to do to remain within the Rules. Last weekend I said "You're a bit far forward there", it's a statement of fact about the rules, not advice that I would not recommend playing from that spot and therefore not a breach as far as I currently understand it.

 

[rulefan]

Some on here seem to be saying that any discussion about The Rules is information and not advice. But it seems to me from some of the Decisions (8-1/16) that what you say and how you say it are both very important in assessing if it's "advice" or "information".

I think I understand now what I would need to do to remain within the Rules. Last weekend I said "You're a bit far forward there", it's a statement of fact about the rules, not advice that I would not recommend playing from that spot and therefore not a breach as far as I currently understand it.

8-1/16 is telling the player what to do in relation to playing his next shot.
Your statement is not telling him how to play. In the context you described it would be obvious that his being 'forward' could only relate to the tee markers and that there might be a rules problem.

If he had been taking a drop from a water hazard by going back on a line from the hole, where distance was not a rules issue but you could see he was thinking about taking a longer club than you thought he needed. Then that statement was not rules related but would be advice.

 

[atticusfinch]

I understand. EG if you say "Bob. if you play from there you will incur a penalty stroke." Bob will likely take a closer look and change his way of playing the hole. But the statement is also just a reminder of what the rules say, i.e. not advice. Is it splitting hairs to make this distinction?

This is an example of the 400 yr old battle to simplify the rules, but as it turns out they are just about as simple as they can be after 400 years of game evolution. I gave up trying to simplify them years ago and just carry a copy to refer to when necess.

One rule of thumb I approve of: never rely on your memory when citing a rule.

 

[rulefan]

If a roaming referee was not permitted to prevent a breach surely the Guidance would have mentioned it.
However, that is what I was advised when I did my first England job.

My apologies. I didn't make it clear as to what type of game was involved.
A roaming referee (fairly unusual) in match play may not intervene except in relation to Rule 1-3, 6-7 or 33-7

However, I was meaning the more usual roaming referee in stroke play, who must act to prevent a breach to protect the interests of the field.

 

[Colin L]

Somewhat relieved to read that! I did do a roaming job last year in a youth team match play event. Also for our club championship week (up to the finals which have allocated referees) I wander around in a buggy and the players have my mobile number. I usually get called in a few times.