tee boxes in play or not ?

[full_throttle]

But surely there should be a penalty for a lost ball?

so if found the drop would be without penalty, but if lost then a penalty would be applied

 

[Foxholer]

That's interesting. Offhand, I can't think of any way in which such a Local Rule can be supported by the Rules.

But you never find unsupportable Local Rules so I must be wrong.

Duncan/Rulefan - am I missing something?

Colin,

Sorry, I missed this reply.

It's been a long time since I've seen this - and I can't remember where it was in the first place.

I didn't question it as it seemed 'reasonable' under the 'protection of the course' concept. I'm pretty sure it mentioned something along the lines of 'when not playing the hole that the teeing area belongs to'.

I'm pretty sure most LRs that aren't of the 'standard' format would have something dodgy about them. I certainly know of 1 club that has an LR preventing anything other than a Putter from being used on greens! And, of course, the seeded divot one!

As for the 'lost in the rough' one in 'proper' comps. That's laughably sooo wrong, though it's often played, with a penalty, in Company days out or bounce games as it speeds up play. I've heard it called 'Bank of Scotland' rules by some (mainly ex) RBS guys! If there's no penalty, why bother using the fairway - just smash it as far as possible, drop another ball somewhere convenient and carry on as if you hit a 'great' drive!

 

[Colin L]

Thanks. As you saw, I quickly convinced myself that I wasn't and put a pint on it. I am a Scot: I do not squander money on bets that aren't certainties.

Oh dear, I fear I might be unlocking the padlock on my sporran and forking out a few bawbees for the beer.

A little more research and I find this from a very experienced and much respected referee in another forum:

My initial answer was "no" [to the question of a Local Rule prohibiting play from teeing areas other than the teeing ground of the hole being played] , I did not see how it could be allowed, nor could I see any reason for protecting a teeing area meant to be used for full strokes anyway.
I asked the R&A and such a Local Rule can be made, but the wording must be carefully considered, because "teeing ground" is a defined term for the limited area used by the player himself, and the intention would clearly be to protect the entire cut teeing area.

I have not considered how the determination should be made or how the LR Rule should be worded - I would never recommend such a Local Rule, and find it unnecessary. It could also be very unfair as it could bring the player to play from a slope with impossible rough often seen near a teeing ground, if relief has to be taken without penalty.

But it has been allowed by the R&A with strict recommendations to consider the wording very carefully.

I take some comfort from My initial answer was "no", I did not see how it could be allowed. At least I was in very good company

But if the R&A says it can be done, it can be done. End of story and the virtual beers are on me. :cheers:

Well, not quite the end of the story: note that the R&A places a strict recommendation on careful wording and I don't think that means something as vague as Fullthrottle quotes from his club.

 

[rosecott]

But surely there should be a penalty for a lost ball?

so if found the drop would be without penalty, but if lost then a penalty would be applied

Rule 25c

If it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in an abnormal ground condition, the player may take relief under this Rule. If he elects to do so, the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition must be determined and, for the purpose of applying this Rule, the ball is deemed to lie at this spot and the player must proceed as follows:
(i)Through the Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot through the green, the player may substitute another ball, without penalty, and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(i).

 

[Ian_S]

Rule 25c

If it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in an abnormal ground condition, the player may take relief under this Rule. If he elects to do so, the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition must be determined and, for the purpose of applying this Rule, the ball is deemed to lie at this spot and the player must proceed as follows:
(i)Through the Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot through the green, the player may substitute another ball, without penalty, and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(i).

Who decides whether something is 'virtually certain'?

I ask as our course has gorse classed as GUR, and the other week I put my tee shot from the 18th in to such an area. As we walked up, another player said he was sure it was in there but we had to find the ball in order to be able to take GUR relief. Luckily we did find it, but had we not could I have claimed it was virtually certain to be in there? The gorse was visible from the tee, we all saw the direction the ball was going, saw it bounce and head for the gorse and if it wasn't outside the it then it was definitely in there.

 

[Colin L]

In the application of the rules, the player decides. Ours is a game that depends on the integrity of the individual and few of us ever benefit from the presence of a rules official.

You have answered your own question by saying if the ball wasn't outside the GUR , then it was definitely in it. In other words,you looked around the area of gorse and there was nowhere it could be hidden and you therefore were virtually certain it must be in the gorse. Using the evidence of another player is valid. Given that virtual certainty, you did not have to find the ball in order to proceed with relief. The ball is deemed to lie where it last crossed the margin of the GUR and you determine the NPR from there.

Decision 26-1/1 is helpful

 

[Foxholer]

just had another read through the above, I've highlighted my concern

if the ball is lost, then regardless of LR the drop should be under penalty. I would imagine the LR would state if found the ball my be dropped without penalty,

Lost in GUR still gets free drop. It has to be Known or Virtually Certain that it's in the GUR though, but you don't actually need to find it - consistent with ball in Water Hazard versus Lost.

Colin, the wording on the score reads as follows.

Dropping without penalty;
d, Greens and Tees- A ball lying on a green or tee other than the one being played must be lifted and dropped at the nearest point of relief not nearer the hole.

This was pretty much how the one I saw was written. The bit about Greens is redundant as it's covered in RoG anyway but the reminder is worthwhile. The bit about Tees would appear to need expansion imo. I think this would be another LR that would be suspended for serious tournament play.

 

[Ethan]

Who decides whether something is 'virtually certain'?

I ask as our course has gorse classed as GUR, and the other week I put my tee shot from the 18th in to such an area. As we walked up, another player said he was sure it was in there but we had to find the ball in order to be able to take GUR relief. Luckily we did find it, but had we not could I have claimed it was virtually certain to be in there? The gorse was visible from the tee, we all saw the direction the ball was going, saw it bounce and head for the gorse and if it wasn't outside the it then it was definitely in there.

Virtually certain will include the presence of alternative destinations, and the size of the hazard. If it is a small pond with gorse and trees, then it is going to be more difficult to say virtually certain than if it were a huge lake with no other hiding place.

It is somewhat like the legal definition of beyond reasonable doubt, which is much more certain than on the balance of probabilities, i.e more likely than not.

 

[CMAC]

just had another read through the above, I've highlighted my concern

if the ball is lost, then regardless of LR the drop should be under penalty. I would imagine the LR would state if found the ball my be dropped without penalty,

Rule 25c

If it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in an abnormal ground condition, the player may take relief under this Rule. If he elects to do so, the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition must be determined and, for the purpose of applying this Rule, the ball is deemed to lie at this spot and the player must proceed as follows:
(i)Through the Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot through the green, the player may substitute another ball, without penalty, and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(i).

The main issue we had was the 'rough' was over the brow of a hill so all we saw was a ball heading towards the rough but it was impossible to see it go in.
The area of rough was thick and surrounded by fairway so it would be 'virtually certain' his ball was in there, however, without seeing it go in how is it determined where to drop one as the area was approx 60yds long and 10 yds wide? plus he couldnt find the ball so it was officially lost