Space Travel - good or bad?

[AmandaJR]

I’m 100% in the George Mallory camp. Why go? “Because it’s there”.

The criticisms of space travel as wasted resource could be applied to Scott and Amundsen, Mallory and Hilary/Norgay, Magellan, Marco Polo, Cook and Columbus. It could actually be applied to the majority of all scientific research. If you only ever do anything that is immediately and obviously profitable, preferring that all resources go to the here and now then you would do very little to advance what humans can achieve (this is how humanity actually worked for all but the last 5-600 years - and progress was desperately slow as a result -Yuval Noah Harari’s book Sapiens has a nice narrative on this if you’re interested).

Tangible benefits to big projects are often not obvious at the time. The space program of the 60s has lead, fairly directly in the end, to Starlink and the like - which is how much of the world will get its opportunity to join the internet, but nobody knew it at the time as the internet didn’t exist

I actually think that going from an earthbound species with no powered flight, to standing on the moon, in less than a human lifetime is humanity’s greatest achievement and fastest leap forward in any field. The fact that they did it with less onboard computing power than the chip inside the credit card in your pocket is utterly mind blowing. The fact that we’ve basically not advanced from that achievement in 55 years shows how far ahead of its time it was.

The pollution of a few rockets is utterly insignificant compared to agriculture, motor vehicles, commercial flights etc.

So I’m a huge fan. America is still an amazing country when it puts its mind to it; it’s unbelievable that a democracy rather than a centrally planned dictatorship has the will and ability to execute and complete these huge projects where the immediate benefit is not obvious; they still dare to dream. If humanity manages to survive its own stupidity for the next few centuries I have no doubt that travel to parts of the solar system will have provided unknown and utterly unpredictable benefits we can’t know of today - built on what is happening right now.

This is why I love this forum. My immediate reaction would have been it's a bit pointless and a bit of a vanity project. Then I read your well informed post and think again.

 

[PaulMdj]

I was watching and reading the Sky News coverage about the crew “waking up” from their first sleep.

They asked NASA if they could turn the heating up as they were cold, NASA said they would look and adjust it. They then asked were their luggage was as they wanted to put on their long sleeved clothing!

I was both amazed and laughing, that
a. NASA controls their heating via remote

And

b. The crew not knowing were their luggage was stowed.

I would of thought the crew had intimate knowledge of the “ship” and just how much can NASA control from earth.

 

[Pants]

There does seem to be a lot of excitement about something less impressive that what was achieved well over half a century ago.

Maybe, just maybe, it's real this time

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Only good for me - I find it really exciting and fascinating - plus listening to the Artemis II astronauts speak from Orion I remember why back in the mid-late 1960s the little Glaswegian boy of a working class family that I was, came to love the idea and wonder of the United States and all that it offered.

 

[Hobbit]

until world poverty is addressed I find spending billions on space travel obscene. Sort the problems here on earth before whizzing off in a tin can. There is undoubtedly global benefit to space science but will it improve the life of millions living in poverty now? NO! Are our priorities right? Is cutting millions in aid right? By all means shout it from the roof tops that I’m wrong but would each of you, individually, walk past someone starving without a second glance? Would you? Look in the mirror and ask that question.

I emptied my wallet 40 years ago to someone begging in the street, and I’ve done it a significant number of times since. I’m the other end of the spectrum. By all means support your dreams and beliefs but I’m not on that journey with you.

New Delhi ghetto



Mumbai ghetto



Lagos, Nigeria ghetto

 

[Arthur Wedge]

until world poverty is addressed I find spending billions on space travel obscene. Sort the problems here on earth before whizzing off in a tin can. There is undoubtedly global benefit to space science but will it improve the life of millions living in poverty now? NO! Are our priorities right? Is cutting millions in aid right? By all means shout it from the roof tops that I’m wrong but would each of you, individually, walk past someone starving without a second glance? Would you? Look in the mirror and ask that question.

I emptied my wallet 40 years ago to someone begging in the street, and I’ve done it a significant number of times since. I’m the other end of the spectrum. By all means support your dreams and beliefs but I’m not on that journey with you.

New Delhi ghetto

View attachment 61409

Mumbai ghetto

View attachment 61407

Lagos, Nigeria ghetto

View attachment 61408

Where do you stop though - there are only so many charities that you can donate too and places like India are swimming with money

We can point to many things where spending is high and ask why not spend elsewhere on aid etc

There are some very rich people in the world that could make a huge dent in world poverty without cutting spending elsewhere

 

[KenL]

until world poverty is addressed I find spending billions on space travel obscene. Sort the problems here on earth before whizzing off in a tin can. There is undoubtedly global benefit to space science but will it improve the life of millions living in poverty now? NO! Are our priorities right? Is cutting millions in aid right? By all means shout it from the roof tops that I’m wrong but would each of you, individually, walk past someone starving without a second glance? Would you? Look in the mirror and ask that question.

I emptied my wallet 40 years ago to someone begging in the street, and I’ve done it a significant number of times since. I’m the other end of the spectrum. By all means support your dreams and beliefs but I’m not on that journey with you.

New Delhi ghetto

View attachment 61409

Mumbai ghetto

View attachment 61407

Lagos, Nigeria ghetto

View attachment 61408

Ask the world’s multi-billionaires to hand over more cash before having a go at people trying to advance the human race.

BTW, India has its own space program.

 

[Neilds]

until world poverty is addressed I find spending billions on space travel obscene. Sort the problems here on earth before whizzing off in a tin can. There is undoubtedly global benefit to space science but will it improve the life of millions living in poverty now? NO! Are our priorities right? Is cutting millions in aid right? By all means shout it from the roof tops that I’m wrong but would each of you, individually, walk past someone starving without a second glance? Would you? Look in the mirror and ask that question.

I emptied my wallet 40 years ago to someone begging in the street, and I’ve done it a significant number of times since. I’m the other end of the spectrum. By all means support your dreams and beliefs but I’m not on that journey with you.

New Delhi ghetto

View attachment 61409

Mumbai ghetto

View attachment 61407

Lagos, Nigeria ghetto

View attachment 61408

You do realise that India has a space program?

 

[IanM]

Why haven't they publicised the astronauts' pronouns?

 

[Swinglowandslow]

until world poverty is addressed I find spending billions on space travel obscene. Sort the problems here on earth before whizzing off in a tin can. There is undoubtedly global benefit to space science but will it improve the life of millions living in poverty now? NO! Are our priorities right? Is cutting millions in aid right? By all means shout it from the roof tops that I’m wrong but would each of you, individually, walk past someone starving without a second glance? Would you? Look in the mirror and ask that question.

I emptied my wallet 40 years ago to someone begging in the street, and I’ve done it a significant number of times since. I’m the other end of the spectrum. By all means support your dreams and beliefs but I’m not on that journey with you.

New Delhi ghetto

View attachment 61409

Mumbai ghetto

View attachment 61407

Lagos, Nigeria ghetto

View attachment 61408

I am sure that every member of this forum, if they could do so,,would wave a magic wand which would then take everyone in this world out of poverty.

But you know that eradication of poverty will never happen. It has never been anywhere near happening in the history of the world.

Humans have a desire to progress and improve their lot , for themselves , then their families, then their tribes and communities, and then their countries. That is the history of humanity.

Unfortunately humans have the ability to deceive and cheat and steal ,and the willingness to do so ,to achieve that “ progress and improve their lot”.

There has always been a debate as to where this desire is worthy and necessary , and thus morally good for humanity, and on the other hand where it becomes selfish,excessive, and thus harmful to society.

Some see profit as wrong in that it means someone along the line loses out: some believe market forces are good and necessary, for the improvement of all.

Some won’t work and there are those who believe they should have money from others who have earned it.

Then , alongside all this ,there will be the unlawful, con men ,brutes and thieves.



It has always been thus. It will always be thus.

To think otherwise , is mistaken.

But now, what has to be faced and accepted, is that humanity cannot survive living only on this Earth.

Populations and resources are going to see to that.

( and maybe stupidity)

For humanity to survive, humans need to live elsewhere as well as here.

These space endeavours are the first steps in achieving that.

That is why the space programme must continue.

 

[Hobbit]

Where do you stop though - there are only so many charities that you can donate too and places like India are swimming with money

We can point to many things where spending is high and ask why not spend elsewhere on aid etc

There are some very rich people in the world that could make a huge dent in world poverty without cutting spending elsewhere

Ask the world’s multi-billionaires to hand over more cash before having a go at people trying to advance the human race.

BTW, India has its own space program.

You do realise that India has a space program?

It’s always someone else’s problem, and I have no problem with you conflating the issue, of spinning it to satisfy yourself. I genuinely don’t care about your answers.

But how many times have you put a £5, a £10, a £20 in a beggar’s bowl? Genuinely, how many times have you emptied your wallet to help someone else? It almost certainly won’t hurt you but dare you to do it. Individually, we can’t address world poverty, it will always be there, but we can help a beggar live another day, and that day may be the difference that turns their life around. Isn’t that worth the effort? Imagine if the majority, including multi millionaires, dipped into their own pocket every month?

I know I’m howling at the moon, and will be dismissed as a fool. That’s fine. Each to their own.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

It’s always someone else’s problem, and I have no problem with you conflating the issue, of spinning it to satisfy yourself. I genuinely don’t care about your answers.

But how many times have you put a £5, a £10, a £20 in a beggar’s bowl? Genuinely, how many times have you emptied your wallet to help someone else? It almost certainly won’t hurt you but dare you to do it. Individually, we can’t address world poverty, it will always be there, but we can help a beggar live another day, and that day may be the difference that turns their life around. Isn’t that worth the effort? Imagine if the majority, including multi millionaires, dipped into their own pocket every month?

I know I’m howling at the moon, and will be dismissed as a fool. That’s fine. Each to their own.

or we can help a beggar find their next fix of drugs etc

Lots of “professional” beggars flooding London - it’s funny how they turn down people giving them sandwiches and just want the cash

So lll look to help a number of charities instead every month at least i know the money I give will be going to the right person

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

It’s always someone else’s problem, and I have no problem with you conflating the issue, of spinning it to satisfy yourself. I genuinely don’t care about your answers.

But how many times have you put a £5, a £10, a £20 in a beggar’s bowl? Genuinely, how many times have you emptied your wallet to help someone else? It almost certainly won’t hurt you but dare you to do it. Individually, we can’t address world poverty, it will always be there, but we can help a beggar live another day, and that day may be the difference that turns their life around. Isn’t that worth the effort? Imagine if the majority, including multi millionaires, dipped into their own pocket every month?

I know I’m howling at the moon, and will be dismissed as a fool. That’s fine. Each to their own.

I’m with you on this, well kind of. I have given to those on the streets but never money, I’ve been into a Subway, McDonalds bought them meals they’re claiming they need and I’ve had it thrown in my face that despite them begging for a meal that they wanted the money not the actual food they were claiming the money would buy. I’ve never bought food for them since and I won’t give them cash.

Many areas in the South of England have seen a rise in “begging gangs”, walk down the road and they have the exact same signs word for word, they’ve been caught congregating and planning where they’ll beg for cash and then found to be far from homeless, poor or starving and in fact are using it as second incomes to fund other activities. I am also really dubious when I see a man begging but has a perfectly well groomed and healthy dog but is claiming they can’t feed themselves and then turns down food when offered and hurls abuse at the person that was trying to help them.

Sometimes walking on by doesn’t mean you don’t care, there are other ways to help. My wife through her company has done many initiatives to help homeless people , we have charities through work to aid people in need. I’d rather it done above board and officially where help is actually given and wanted, not where it’s offered and thrown back at you because all they really wanted was money.

So like I said I’m with you… I think this space money should be better spent on helping the world with its current state, but I’m totally against handing over cash to a man in the street.

 

[Hobbit]

or we can help a beggar find their next fix of drugs etc

Lots of “professional” beggars flooding London - it’s funny how they turn down people giving them sandwiches and just want the cash

So lll look to help a number of charities instead every month at least i know the money I give will be going to the right person

Are all beggars druggies?

How you behave towards charities is entirely up to you.

The question posed was “space travel - good or bad.” I gave my views. Some agree, partly agree, some sort of disagree and some vehemently disagree. And the world keeps turning.

There’s no point me repeating that point, it’s already there to be read. People’s opinion of that is just there opinion. They don’t have to agree with me, I doubt many will, and I don’t have to agree with theirs…

 

[Fade and Die]

It’s always someone else’s problem, and I have no problem with you conflating the issue, of spinning it to satisfy yourself. I genuinely don’t care about your answers.

But how many times have you put a £5, a £10, a £20 in a beggar’s bowl? Genuinely, how many times have you emptied your wallet to help someone else? It almost certainly won’t hurt you but dare you to do it. Individually, we can’t address world poverty, it will always be there, but we can help a beggar live another day, and that day may be the difference that turns their life around. Isn’t that worth the effort? Imagine if the majority, including multi millionaires, dipped into their own pocket every month?

I know I’m howling at the moon, and will be dismissed as a fool. That’s fine. Each to their own.

Classic day drinking.

 

[Hobbit]

I’m with you on this, well kind of. I have given to those on the streets but never money, I’ve been into a Subway, McDonalds bought them meals they’re claiming they need and I’ve had it thrown in my face that despite them begging for a meal that they wanted the money not the actual food they were claiming the money would buy. I’ve never bought food for them since and I won’t give them cash.

Many areas in the South of England have seen a rise in “begging gangs”, walk down the road and they have the exact same signs word for word, they’ve been caught congregating and planning where they’ll beg for cash and then found to be far from homeless, poor or starving and in fact are using it as second incomes to fund other activities. I am also really dubious when I see a man begging but has a perfectly well groomed and healthy dog but is claiming they can’t feed themselves and then turns down food when offered and hurls abuse at the person that was trying to help them.

Sometimes walking on by doesn’t mean you don’t care, there are other ways to help. My wife through her company has done many initiatives to help homeless people , we have charities through work to aid people in need. I’d rather it done above board and officially where help is actually given and wanted, not where it’s offered and thrown back at you because all they really wanted was money.

So like I said I’m with you… I think this space money should be better spent on helping the world with its current state, but I’m totally against handing over cash to a man in the street.

My dad once told me to look at a beggar’s shoes & socks. He went on to explain that shoes and socks tell you how poor a person is. He expanded on that to basically say a really poor person is obviously poor. There are many street beggars are scamming. Most you’ll spot, some you won’t.

I had part of my working month chairing our charity dept. We gave thousands every month. There were far more deserving cases than we could support. But what really shocked me was how many people were clean and tidy but living from food bank to food bank. They were a cough away from being on the streets…

 

[Hobbit]

Classic day drinking.

Like I said, dismissed as a fool.

 

[Fade and Die]

Like I said, dismissed as a fool.

Like David Icke?

 

[PaulMdj]

My dad once told me to look at a beggar’s shoes & socks. He went on to explain that shoes and socks tell you how poor a person is. He expanded on that to basically say a really poor person is obviously poor. There are many street beggars are scamming. Most you’ll spot, some you won’t.

I had part of my working month chairing our charity dept. We gave thousands every month. There were far more deserving cases than we could support. But what really shocked me was how many people were clean and tidy but living from food bank to food bank. They were a cough away from being on the streets…

The bit in bold all day long, I’ve done case work for the RBL for years and quite frankly been shocked and heart broken at times as to what people are requesting help with.
Apologies, pressed post before finishing:

We also see Chief Execs of Charities on hideous wages and you can wonder were are donations actually go, however, to bring it back to the thread.

The answer for me is, we should be doing both.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

My dad once told me to look at a beggar’s shoes & socks. He went on to explain that shoes and socks tell you how poor a person is. He expanded on that to basically say a really poor person is obviously poor. There are many street beggars are scamming. Most you’ll spot, some you won’t.

I had part of my working month chairing our charity dept. We gave thousands every month. There were far more deserving cases than we could support. But what really shocked me was how many people were clean and tidy but living from food bank to food bank. They were a cough away from being on the streets…

Like I said better ways to help people than giving the man in the street cash. This highlights my point, done officially, properly and you know the help is appreciated and going to be given properly.