Some food for thought!

[kid2]

Afternoon all,

I came across this last night..http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2009-12/stackandtilt...and it made for some very interesting reading and afterwards it made me question why all books , Mags, Tips and teachings seem to drill the conventional method into us.......

At the moment im currently practicing and playing with the S&T swing and if im honest my ball striking is definately better with it.....
Although its still early the signs for me have been very positive.....

One thing that did stick out to me was when being thought Pitches and chips and maybe wedge play the conventional train of thought is to get the weight over the front foot for better ball contact.... A LA ( S&T ) so does it not make sense to play all shots like this as there has to be improved contact through this method?

Convince me othewise if you can!

I have been converted


Oh and check out this also.......http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2007-09/stacktiltcritics

 

[brendy]

I was under the impression S&T led to better contact but more pushed or shots left out to the right? Surely you still need the timing and turn so the conventional method is preferred ultimately?
I wondered also how you can shape a shot if your path is fairly static, ie how can you hit a slinging hook or sliding fade if you are always ahead of the ball physically.

 

[kid2]

I was under the impression S&T led to better contact but more pushed or shots left out to the right? Surely you still need the timing and turn so the conventional method is preferred ultimately?
I wondered also how you can shape a shot if your path is fairly static, ie how can you hit a slinging hook or sliding fade if you are always ahead of the ball physically.

I'll let you know when i achieve that Brendy

All i can say at the moment is im not concerned with trying to shape the ball.....I think that the ultimate goal for most club golfers is to be able to hit the ball straight......Il bet if people were asked then this would easily be in there top 5 fixes......

A substantial amount of players that take up the game will have a severe slice....Im wondering how much that figure would drop by if they sere thought S&T from the outset.....

It cant be all that bad.....Even wood's new coach is teaching him the some of the swing!

 

[JustOne]

I was under the impression S&T led to better contact but more pushed or shots left out to the right? Surely you still need the timing and turn so the conventional method is preferred ultimately?
I wondered also how you can shape a shot if your path is fairly static, ie how can you hit a slinging hook or sliding fade if you are always ahead of the ball physically.

Brendy. Just out of interest.... how does a slicer of the ball shape a 10yd draw? How does someone who plays a high fade then hit a low running hook? Doesn't the conventional swing lead to pulled shots and slices? (..and blocked shots/fat shots/thin shots/snap hooks/ yada yada)

If you are under the impression that S&T leads to better contact why would you choose a swing that gives you WORSE?

 

[ScienceBoy]

I too have been experimenting with it, I posted about it on here.

I am trying to take the bits from the theory I thing will work with my game, mostly to improve my long irons.

I believe my pro is helping me the most, I just need to learn how to implement his advice. Doing that is hard, I really cannot remember all he said in a 30 min lesson, thankfully I have 5 lessons left with him for this winter to work it all out.

 

[brendy]

This is why I asked, I have not read up on it, I just see it as setting up weight on front foot and hitting the ball with a more descending blow.
You mention fats, hooks etc. This is all to do with inconsistent hits. If S&T was so good, why arnt there more people using it and winning everything in sight? Do you still get the fats, hooks and slices?
Honest questions, not trying to incite some wrath posts!
Using S&T it seems to be more of a hit than a swing, unconventional yes, but can you keep going to a natural finish or does it feel manufactured?

I was under the impression S&T led to better contact but more pushed or shots left out to the right? Surely you still need the timing and turn so the conventional method is preferred ultimately?
I wondered also how you can shape a shot if your path is fairly static, ie how can you hit a slinging hook or sliding fade if you are always ahead of the ball physically.

Brendy. Just out of interest.... how does a slicer of the ball shape a 10yd draw? How does someone who plays a high fade then hit a low running hook? Doesn't the conventional swing lead to pulled shots and slices? (..and blocked shots/fat shots/thin shots/snap hooks/ yada yada)

If you are under the impression that S&T leads to better contact why would you choose a swing that gives you WORSE?

 

[JustOne]

Do you still get the fats, hooks and slices?

I don't practice (50 balls on the practice ground this year) so to judge an entire swing methodology on the way I fall out of my car, smoke a fag and hit the ball is a bit intense!

I don't really ever slice the ball unless I'm playing for a slice, I have beaten my h/cap by 4 or more shots 20+ times this year, 5 sub par rounds, one of which was a 67.

If we base the whole of the conventional swing on your results how would it fair?

I just see it as setting up weight on front foot and hitting the ball with a more descending blow.
Using S&T it seems to be more of a hit than a swing, unconventional yes, but can you keep going to a natural finish or does it feel manufactured?

It feels perfectly natural to me in the short time I've been using it, in fact I'd say the old conventional method never felt natural to me at all. I used to practice for hours and hours on end and still struggled to shoot 2 or 3 over. Now I still struggle but I don't need to practice to do it!!! LOL

If S&T was so good, why arnt there more people using it and winning everything in sight?

Isn't winning on tour something to do with the guy who putts the best? If you have 100 players of the same ability and 1 of those people is stack and tilt then you would expect the S&T guy to win 1 time out of 100 wouldn't you?

I don't know how many 2nd's, 3rd's or even top 10's there have been but here's some trophies if that helps..
http://stackandtiltgolfswing.com/about/7/

 

[Imurg]

James
YOur link just crashed my computer
Could just be mine but might be worth checking it out.

 

[JustOne]

Any links I've posted work fine for me.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

James
YOur link just crashed my computer
Could just be mine but might be worth checking it out.

Nuffink wrong with the link, works on mine fine
Must be your PC,is Flash Player up to date?

Fragger

 

[brendy]

It seems a little strang eto me that good putters with poor iron games wouldnt be early adopters in the search for a consistent tour card.

My "conventional" swing, for the record, probably has a few conventional elements to it I suppose , buffer or better at around 45% (2 rounds, 10 under handicap)but some of this came from me learning how to fade the ball and for a good few weeks (and still happens occasionally) I was over/under doing it and found trouble. Im a bit like you with regards to practice.
To me at the moment, practice is the waggle before blast off!
I'll certainly not dismiss it, in fact a little light reading will occurr tonight, might give it a whirl tomorrow.

 

[JustOne]

It seems a little strang eto me that good putters with poor iron games wouldnt be early adopters in the search for a consistent tour card.

It seems a little strange to me that a tour player would adopt the swing at all, after all they've probably used their normal swing for 20+ yrs, know it like the back of their hand and use the money to pay their mortgage and sports car - it would surely be a monumental step to then even think about changing.

Not so monumental though for the likes of you and I who just want to knock it round in a few less shots without going home wondering why we can't hit a cows arse with a banjo today

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I've said on here before that I think there are some excellent parts to it and the small dabble I had with it did induce some better ball striking. However for my part if I didn't get the weight/balance thing right all the time the weight moved forward during the downswing and the shanks appeared.

It is still on the agenda to look at in more detail over the winter (my mums health permitting any playing/practicing) and I do think there is a lot in it that an average player can take and adopt. I understand Brendy's counter-argument too but my only reply to that is that most of the top guys have had intense training from a young age on the conventional swing (is there actually such a thing) and hit hundreds of balls daily to keep the movements ingrained

 

[percy_layer]

most of the top guys have had intense training from a young age on the conventional swing (is there actually such a thing) and hit hundreds of balls daily to keep the movements ingrained

Exactly, there are so many 'methods' being identified and discussed in golf that are supposed to refer to different top players. Labelling the weight shift as THE defining element of the 'conventional' golf swing is IMO innaccurate.

My concern is the number of players (including some of the ones in the link to S&T winners) who worked on the S&T principles but have since stopped. Also, a national golf union had its players developing S&T and has since stopped coaching that method.

Also, I would never go to see a coach that coaches a method, i would expect to work on the parts of my game/swing that need to be worked on to develop my game to the best it can be.

 

[Screwback]

I was under the impression S&T led to better contact but more pushed or shots left out to the right? Surely you still need the timing and turn so the conventional method is preferred ultimately?
I wondered also how you can shape a shot if your path is fairly static, ie how can you hit a slinging hook or sliding fade if you are always ahead of the ball physically.

Brendy. Just out of interest.... how does a slicer of the ball shape a 10yd draw? How does someone who plays a high fade then hit a low running hook? Doesn't the conventional swing lead to pulled shots and slices? (..and blocked shots/fat shots/thin shots/snap hooks/ yada yada)

If you are under the impression that S&T leads to better contact why would you choose a swing that gives you WORSE?

Justone do you use stack and tilt? jus cause when you postsed your swing the other week i did not think it looked like an S&T swing! but you always back the S&T method/...

 

[JustOne]

Also, I would never go to see a coach that coaches a method,

MY local PGA pro teaches a method.. his method. He teaches the same thing to every player from grip to follow through. I guess Sean Foley is teaching HIS method to Tiger and Butch probably has his own method too... as did Leadbetter.
To find a coach who analyses your swing and defines unique adjustments pertaining only to your swing means that you probably have to be a tour player to be able to afford it

Funny that a golf union would even consider aligning towards S&T when most of the people on the forum dismiss it without a thought

As mentioned in previous threads I think a 'S&T hybrid swing' will be the be-all-and-end-all swing in a couple of years and all golf books will be rewritten.

 

[Alex1975]

"The radius, however, must not reach full extension before impact. If it does, the swing will bottom out behind the ball. If the arms bend through impact, the radius shortens, which also inhibits contact"

If you keep your arms straight how do you stop the radius reaching full extension??


I love this swing but since trying it I have been shocking and this may be some of it. HID is not happy about how much I have ripped the garden up by bottoming out(fat) shots, really should get a door mat or something

 

[percy_layer]

Also, I would never go to see a coach that coaches a method,

To find a coach who analyses your swing and defines unique adjustments pertaining only to your swing means that you probably have to be a tour player to be able to afford it

I would have thought the average PGA Professional would suffice......

 

[JT77]

I didnt think foley taught s&t, i thought he just uses some similar ideas, ie weight on the front foot, and staying over the ball, he doesnt teach some of the other ideas of s&t.
I dont know if your right and everyone will use it or not, I like some of the ideas myself like staying over the ball, but I dont know anyone who can help too much with it, so thats why I have stayed 'conventional', my swing is going alright and I am trying not to worry too much about it atm anyways!
I think if you get a pro you trust who knows a good way for you to swing, then go with it!!

 

[JustOne]

Also, I would never go to see a coach that coaches a method,

To find a coach who analyses your swing and defines unique adjustments pertaining only to your swing means that you probably have to be a tour player to be able to afford it

I would have thought the average PGA Professional would suffice......

You must have accidentally missed this part..

MY local PGA pro teaches a method.. his method. He teaches the same thing to every player from grip to follow through.