Sir Michael Fallon

[Deleted member 16999]

First, Your attempt at sarcasm is pathetic and is a very poor substitute for debate.

I have made it clear that I don't support sexual assault or abuse but you prefer to ignore that. My point is what determines sexual assault, maybe you could discuss this in a grown up manner.

You stated “We have driven out a very capable Minister through tittle tattle” the third allegation is one of sexual assault, if he’s so innocent why resign?

I have not ignored what you do or do not support, but It is you who is trying to blame modern society and the media for these allegations, if those people had behaved themselves then there’d be no allegations against them.

As for scarcasm, try your yogurt knitters post or are you once again not practising what you preach.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

We have to be able to distinguish between offences. Offending someone is not a crime and as someone said, being offended does not mean you are right. Sexual assault is a crime. Making boorish and ill advised comments of a sexual nature is not a crime. It's stupid and pathetic but not criminal. If we can't distinguish that from sexual assault then we are simply failing victims of sexual assault.
Is speeding at 32mph in a 30 zone the same as speeding at 120mph in a 30 zone?
If any organisation fails to have proper procedures in place for dealing with all this then that organisation is failing its people and they are culpable.

I can’t believe we’re shifting the blame to organisations, there are many articles coming out were people did report things and then told “not to rock the boat”, that information is then used against the alleged abuser as means of power.

You can have all the systems in the world in place, but if those in authority decide to ignore the system how does that help the complainant.

We wouldn’t need systems in place if people respected one another.

Both your speeding analogies are against the law.

 

[Sweep]

The 1970’s have been on the phone, they said welcome home :thup:

Interesting comment. Clearly made in an attempt to offend. The recipient could be made to feel uncomfortable.
Do you think you should lose your job for making this comment?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Interesting comment. Clearly made in an attempt to offend. The recipient could be made to feel uncomfortable.
Do you think you should lose your job for making this comment?

If he wishes to complain and his case is found correct, I’d be more than happy to apologise.

In my defence I would raise his previous posts and let the mods decide.

 

[Sweep]

I can’t believe we’re shifting the blame to organisations, there are many articles coming out were people did report things and then told “not to rock the boat”, that information is then used against the alleged abuser as means of power.

You can have all the systems in the world in place, but if those in authority decide to ignore the system how does that help the complainant.

We wouldn’t need systems in place if people respected one another.

Both your speeding analogies are against the law.

No-one is shifting the blame to the organisations. I just said organisations must facilitate people coming forward, or are you against this?

So, I guess you are saying that all offences are equally bad? Sorry, that's just bonkers.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

We have to be able to distinguish between offences. Offending someone is not a crime and as someone said, being offended does not mean you are right. Sexual assault is a crime. Making boorish and ill advised comments of a sexual nature is not a crime. It's stupid and pathetic but not criminal. If we can't distinguish that from sexual assault then we are simply failing victims of sexual assault.
Is speeding at 32mph in a 30 zone the same as speeding at 120mph in a 30 zone?
If any organisation fails to have proper procedures in place for dealing with all this then that organisation is failing its people and they are culpable.

Making unwanted comments of a sexual nature can easily be classed as Sexual Abuse - you don’t have to put hands on someone to sexually abuse them , can easily be in the form of words.

Being offensive to someone can actually be a crime and one that can have severe consequences depends on the results of the offensive behaviour.

So far both yourself and SR seem to be pointing fingers of blame at both the establishment and victims as opposed to the person who is being accused of said acts towards females.

The more that comes to Light and the more people are told that these unwanted actions no matter how “trivial” they may seem are no longer tolerated then hopefully that will allow more victims to come forward and ensure people don’t carry away with any sort of sexual abuse.

The Victorian attitudes displayed by people like SR are hopefully dissolving away and it’s because people are now being brave enough to come forward

 

[Deleted member 16999]

No-one is shifting the blame to the organisations. I just said organisations must facilitate people coming forward, or are you against this?

So, I guess you are saying that all offences are equally bad? Sorry, that's just bonkers.

SR was blaming modern society and the media, I’m fully aware organisation have these procedures and absolutely agree with them, in this instance we are talking about Parliament, complainants have stated they lodged the complaint and nothing happened, the people in this organisation are not doing there job, therefore people in that system have no confidence in it.

I am also positive lots of other organisations are not like this.

Didn’t say all offences are equally bad, said both were illegal :thup:

 

[chrisd]

It's funny that I seem to remember going to work in the late 60's 70's 80's 90's etc and we used to work pretty hard and for long hours, but we were often found having a laugh and joke, were pretty irreverent and the ladies joined in just as much. I shudder to think how boring the work place must be these days, I didn't realise that everyone was so precious and would think to complain about having a knee touched 15 years past.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The touching the knee thing is a red herring that people are focussing on, that was one of 3 alleged instances, the woman involved claims she dealt with it at the time.

He had a further 2 allegations put against him and he has resigned.

Maybe he should of stood his ground and fought against them all.

Chris,
People still work just as hard today and have as much fun, you can use your analogy for all sorts of things that happened between 60’s-90’s and I’m sure a lot of it we are glad we’ve moved on. Just because it happened yesterday doesn’t make it right for today.

 

[Pin-seeker]

It's funny that I seem to remember going to work in the late 60's 70's 80's 90's etc and we used to work pretty hard and for long hours, but we were often found having a laugh and joke, were pretty irreverent and the ladies joined in just as much. I shudder to think how boring the work place must be these days, I didn't realise that everyone was so precious and would think to complain about having a knee touched 15 years past.

It’s getting to the stage now where you’re probably better off not talking to anyone.

Wonder if Carragher will lodge a complaint against Henry in 15yrs time🤔

 

[Old Skier]

What does victims no favour in this is when (as in the first labour case) the victim prefers to discuss it in the media. If there is a serious allegation here should she not be talking to the police.

 

[Dasit]

Men in my generation (Mid 20s) are starting to not even want to look at, let alone talk to women in the work place.



Just an accusation is enough to lose your job, have a media witch hunt, ruin your reputation.





Honestly, having an all male work place is the only solution down the line. Stop toxic men from sexually harassing women, and toxic women from making false accusations for their own benefit.

 

[chrisd]

Chris,
People still work just as hard today and have as much fun, you can use your analogy for all sorts of things that happened between 60’s-90’s and I’m sure a lot of it we are glad we’ve moved on. Just because it happened yesterday doesn’t make it right for today.

Doesn't necessarily make it wrong either!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Doesn't necessarily make it wrong either!

We’re back to the know your audience principle then mate, no one is saying it’s all wrong, you know the difference and like me you’ve probably seen or heard or took part in stuff that was acceptable during that period and wouldn’t be tolerated today.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Men in my generation (Mid 20s) are starting to not even want to look at, let alone talk to women in the work place.



Just an accusation is enough to lose your job, have a media witch hunt, ruin your reputation.





Honestly, having an all male work place is the only solution down the line. Stop toxic men from sexually harassing women, and toxic women from making false accusations for their own benefit.

How about just treating everyone as an equal and with respect.

You never heard of bullying or sexual harassment in all male environments then?

 

[chrisd]

We’re back to the know your audience principle then mate, no one is saying it’s all wrong, you know the difference and like me you’ve probably seen or heard or took part in stuff that was acceptable during that period and wouldn’t be tolerated today.

True enough, I just don't agree with people being strung up for stuff that was acceptable back then and then being accused as if it were today. That view doesn't include people back then who did go further than was acceptable by most, and I think we all knew what the limits were in each decade.

 

[Dasit]

How about just treating everyone as an equal and with respect.

You never heard of bullying or sexual harassment in all male environments then?

Not everyone lives in your lala fantasy land



Work place can be a harsh environment. Lot of office politics, can try to keep your head down but if someone has it in for you, sometimes you stand very little chance.

 

[SocketRocket]

How about just treating everyone as an equal and with respect.

How about you doing it then. My Yogurt comment was a reaction to your previous insulting comment and intended to show how silly it is to revert to that type of debate. Can you not accept that some people have different views to you and just like you believe them to be relevant. If you disagree with them then debate the subject matter rather than suggesting a different view means the holder is somehow from another century.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Not everyone lives in your lala fantasy land



Work place can be a harsh environment. Lot of office politics, can try to keep your head down but if someone has it in for you, sometimes you stand very little chance.

36 years in the Army, over 15 years as an Equality and Diversity Advisor and Army Welfare Officer

I’ve seen and dealt with more bullying/sexual harrasment/homophobic behaviour than you can even imagine, 6 of those years were with Civil Servants in office environments.

Please don’t try and dismiss my experience as lala fantasy land.

 

[doublebogey7]

I'm not blaming the victims, I am questioning whether many can be called victims. Regarding Fallon: Because of the media and populous modus operandi we have now. We have driven out a very capable Minister through tittle tattle. No one has been mentally scarred by him.

I am goiung to call this what it is, "Bullshit". If the minister has done such a great job and has also done nothing wrong why is he not defending his corner. You like many others are saying that women should show more strength of character, but now they are doing this by calling it out your view seems to be that it is the men (and I know it is not always men) in question that have become "Snowflakes".