Sir Michael Fallon

[FairwayDodger]

To be clear, I absolutely stand by my post.
I was reporting what was in the press and I did say "if true". I do believe that Leadsom's actions do have an ulterior motive. The timing stinks. It's politics. My main fear is that this nonsense gets in the way of progress with real and serious complaints of sexual Harassment and worse.
This is a perfect example of how anyone dare not make a valid argument to the contrary for fear of being associated with unacceptable behaviour. I have never been guilty of such behaviour and I am prepared to argue the contrary case if justified.

For the avoidance of doubt, in no way am I suggesting you are guilty of this. That is a massive leap from the very simple point I was trying to make.

A big fear for victims of these offences is that they won't be believed. I'd much prefer if our first reaction was to believe them rather than immediately question why they didn't mention it at the time. In Leadsom's case (and I hate defending her incidentally) it's just as likely that she mentions it now because she knows it wasn't an isolated case and other stories are coming to light.

 

[Old Skier]

I find it sad in this day and age that there are men and women out there that havnt the confidence to come out and make these things public.

These are stackable offences in many organisations and if proved the person responsible for these actions should be be hoofed from parliament.

 

[chippa1909]

Another MP from 'the list' suspended and reported to the police. Charlie Elphicke.

 

[Sweep]

For the avoidance of doubt, in no way am I suggesting you are guilty of this. That is a massive leap from the very simple point I was trying to make.

A big fear for victims of these offences is that they won't be believed. I'd much prefer if our first reaction was to believe them rather than immediately question why they didn't mention it at the time. In Leadsom's case (and I hate defending her incidentally) it's just as likely that she mentions it now because she knows it wasn't an isolated case and other stories are coming to light.

As I said in my original post, there may be more to this from both sides.
I accept all you say about victims being afraid of coming forward in fear that they may not be believed. But this is not sexual abuse or rape. This is a comment. A comment made 5 years ago. And this is not a woman who may not be believed. She is a member of Parliament. As a cabinet minister as she has been since 2015 to my knowledge, she is probably one of the most powerful women in Britain, especially considering Mrs. May was put forward as the second most powerful woman on the planet just this week.
IF this is all there is on Fallon (and it is a big if) and if we have lost a Minister of Defence over this who by all accounts was doing a good job then it is beyond ridiculous and we are on very dangerous ground. Trying to find people to serve in government at all is going to become impossible. What's next? The Pope for PM? If men don't feel they can speak to women (and vice-Versa) without fear of upsetting them or being reported, what then?
And most importantly, whilst all this is going on real abuse is not being tackled and no real leadership or example is being set by Parliament at all.
IF Fallon is guilty of more, then he may have got what he deserved but right now it stinks and I do not believe it is wrong to question a complainers motives. You cannot just decide to believe every complaint under the guise of encouraging other victims to come forward, especially in a case like this. Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[drdel]

As I said in my original post, there may be more to this from both sides.
I accept all you say about victims being afraid of coming forward in fear that they may not be believed. But this is not sexual abuse or rape. This is a comment. A comment made 5 years ago. And this is not a woman who may not be believed. She is a member of Parliament. As a cabinet minister as she has been since 2015 to my knowledge, she is probably one of the most powerful women in Britain, especially considering Mrs. May was put forward as the second most powerful woman on the planet just this week.
IF this is all there is on Fallon (and it is a big if) and if we have lost a Minister of Defence over this who by all accounts was doing a good job then it is beyond ridiculous and we are on very dangerous ground. Trying to find people to serve in government at all is going to become impossible. What's next? The Pope for PM? If men don't feel they can speak to women (and vice-Versa) without fear of upsetting them or being reported, what then?
And most importantly, whilst all this is going on real abuse is not being tackled and no real leadership or example is being set by Parliament at all.
IF Fallon is guilty of more, then he may have got what he deserved but right now it stinks and I do not believe it is wrong to question a complainers motives. You cannot just decide to believe every complaint under the guise of encouraging other victims to come forward, especially in a case like this. Innocent until proven guilty.

I agree.

Sadly, justice is not what its about anyone. Many, but not all, are just claims where nothing illegal has occured but in the media storm both men and women are going to be the losers

 

[SocketRocket]

Most of this is thin skinned balderdash and a wagon for the professionally offended to jump on. If someone has cause to believe they have been sexually assaulted or offended then there are/or should be procedures to deal with it. Why wait 10, 20, 30 years.

If there are not suitable procedures then get them sorted. I cant imagine any business not having a complaints procedure that could deal with this.

 

[drdel]

It cannot be right that accused is made public and fried by the social media etc. while often the accuser is anonymous.

 

[bobmac]

Another MP from 'the list' suspended and reported to the police. Charlie Elphicke.

He doesn't know what he has been accused of yet, that shouldn't happen surely?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Most of this is thin skinned balderdash and a wagon for the professionally offended to jump on. If someone has cause to believe they have been sexually assaulted or offended then there are/or should be procedures to deal with it. Why wait 10, 20, 30 years.

If there are not suitable procedures then get them sorted. I cant imagine any business not having a complaints procedure that could deal with this.

That’s unrealstic, regardless of procedures in place there is still the risk of cover up and the abuse of power.

Many men and women won’t and can’t come forward due to the effect on them and there future, that’s the real world.

Many suffer in silence, we shouldn’t need complaint procedures, this behaviour shouldn’t happen, we should be concentrating on the predators and why they think they can behave that way and get away with it.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Most of this is thin skinned balderdash and a wagon for the professionally offended to jump on. If someone has cause to believe they have been sexually assaulted or offended then there are/or should be procedures to deal with it. Why wait 10, 20, 30 years.

If there are not suitable procedures then get them sorted. I cant imagine any business not having a complaints procedure that could deal with this.

Seriously ?!

Think Stu had it right - for someone who appears to be very well educated you spout some complete and utter rubbish - but each time you do you go down a level

Do you not even begin to udnerstand how hard it was for females to report sexual abuse of any kind in the past - many other governing bodies have swept it all under the carpet in the past and made it very hard for anyone to come forward. Many people in the past have suffered in silence , it’s ruined their lives but people have power over them making them curl up and accept it.

Your post just shows exactly why people haven’t come forward for fear of being accused of “thin skinned” and “professionally offended” .

 

[SocketRocket]

Seriously ?!

Think Stu had it right - for someone who appears to be very well educated you spout some complete and utter rubbish - but each time you do you go down a level

Do you not even begin to udnerstand how hard it was for females to report sexual abuse of any kind in the past - many other governing bodies have swept it all under the carpet in the past and made it very hard for anyone to come forward. Many people in the past have suffered in silence , it’s ruined their lives but people have power over them making them curl up and accept it.

Your post just shows exactly why people haven’t come forward for fear of being accused of “thin skinned” and “professionally offended” .

You typify the attitude that encourages this type of tittle tattle that the media have a feeding frenzy on. Your bleeding heart 'holier than thou' attitude is typical of the 'Facebook Warriors' that have so much to answer for in creating a society that has lost it's way.

We are not talking about sexual assault or abuse here, we all know that's not acceptable. Women would normally just tell someone who had made a comment to them they found annoying to 'clear off' or words to that effect. This current round of hysteria is something cooked up by either the media or others in power for their own profit. You may get taken in by it but I am rather less gullible.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

You typify the attitude that encourages this type of tittle tattle that the media have a feeding frenzy on. Your bleeding heart 'holier than thou' attitude is typical of the 'Facebook Warriors' that have so much to answer for in creating a society that has lost it's way.

We are not talking about sexual assault or abuse here, we all know that's not acceptable. Women would normally just tell someone who had made a comment to them they found annoying to 'clear off' or words to that effect. This current round of hysteria is something cooked up by either the media or others in power for their own profit. You may get taken in by it but I am rather less gullible.

The 1970’s have been on the phone, they said welcome home :thup:

 

[SocketRocket]

That’s unrealstic, regardless of procedures in place there is still the risk of cover up and the abuse of power.

Many men and women won’t and can’t come forward due to the effect on them and there future, that’s the real world.

Many suffer in silence, we shouldn’t need complaint procedures, this behaviour shouldn’t happen, we should be concentrating on the predators and why they think they can behave that way and get away with it.

That is a very naive comment. GBH shouldn't happen, lots of things shouldn't happen but guess what, they do, there are levels of behavior that are unacceptable, levels that are acceptable and levels that are questionable, we have heads on our shoulders so that we can understand the differences and apply a suitable policy as applicable.

 

[SocketRocket]

The 1970’s have been on the phone, they said welcome home :thup:

Keep knitting the yogurt

 

[Deleted member 16999]

That is a very naive comment. GBH shouldn't happen, lots of things shouldn't happen but guess what, they do, there are levels of behavior that are unacceptable, levels that are acceptable and levels that are questionable, we have heads on our shoulders so that we can understand the differences and apply a suitable policy as applicable.

You’re blaming the victims, you’ve been around long enough to have seen abuse of power in the workplace, either the “weak” bloke or the “office slut” terms that follow people through their careers.

Why did Fallon resign, explain that one, why didn’t he fight?

 

[chrisd]

He doesn't know what he has been accused of yet, that shouldn't happen surely?

Not only that but he said last evening that the press knew that he had been suspended from the Tory Party before he did - what a shambles!

 

[SocketRocket]

You’re blaming the victims, you’ve been around long enough to have seen abuse of power in the workplace, either the “weak” bloke or the “office slut” terms that follow people through their careers.

Why did Fallon resign, explain that one, why didn’t he fight?

I'm not blaming the victims, I am questioning whether many can be called victims. Regarding Fallon: Because of the media and populous modus operandi we have now. We have driven out a very capable Minister through tittle tattle. No one has been mentally scarred by him.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Because of the media and populous modus operandi we have now. We have driven out a very capable Minister through tittle tattle. No one has been mentally scared by him.

So the third allegation of sexual assault is no more than tittle tattle.
Apologies for the 1970’s comment, it was actually the 1870’s who want your back.

 

[SocketRocket]

So the third allegation of sexual assault is no more than tittle tattle.
Apologies for the 1970’s comment, it was actually the 1870’s who want your back.

First, Your attempt at sarcasm is pathetic and is a very poor substitute for debate.

I have made it clear that I don't support sexual assault or abuse but you prefer to ignore that. My point is what determines sexual assault, maybe you could discuss this in a grown up manner.

 

[Sweep]

We have to be able to distinguish between offences. Offending someone is not a crime and as someone said, being offended does not mean you are right. Sexual assault is a crime. Making boorish and ill advised comments of a sexual nature is not a crime. It's stupid and pathetic but not criminal. If we can't distinguish that from sexual assault then we are simply failing victims of sexual assault.
Is speeding at 32mph in a 30 zone the same as speeding at 120mph in a 30 zone?
If any organisation fails to have proper procedures in place for dealing with all this then that organisation is failing its people and they are culpable.