Should you be able to get relief from divots in the fairway?

[clubchamp98]

But they are not exceptions, they are rules within the game. Drop off a green, drop out of a penalty area etc. These are all inherent parts of the game. When the ball is in play you play it as it lies or declare it unplayable and take a penalty. Simple.

Sorry I don’t agree.
You are not playing it as it lies if you are moving it somewhere else. Not so simple.

 

[clubchamp98]

The reason it would be abused isn't really down to a lack of integrity on the part of the player (although that will occur occasionally), it's more down to the comp,etc inability to define, to the absolute certainty, what a divot is.
That's the crux of the whole debate.
If you can 100% define what constitutes a divot, without there being any potential anomalies, then you have a case for arguing whether you should get relief or not.
And..
As has been said, if you are allowed a "perfect" lie on the fairway are you going to bury your ball in the cabbage when you, miraculously, get a decent lie after carving a drive?
After all, they are both examples of luck
Can you deny one while righting the other?

I would say the cabbage isn’t a prepared area to play from .
The fairway is prepared for you to play from.
So a comparison can’t really be made.
Luck plays a part but we forget the good luck but do remember for a long time the bad luck.

 

[Orikoru]

The reason it would be abused isn't really down to a lack of integrity on the part of the player (although that will occur occasionally), it's more down to the comp,etc inability to define, to the absolute certainty, what a divot is.
That's the crux of the whole debate.
If you can 100% define what constitutes a divot, without there being any potential anomalies, then you have a case for arguing whether you should get relief or not.
And..
As has been said, if you are allowed a "perfect" lie on the fairway are you going to bury your ball in the cabbage when you, miraculously, get a decent lie after carving a drive?
After all, they are both examples of luck
Can you deny one while righting the other?

There are loads of areas open to interpretation in much the same way, like what constitutes a path or not, nearest point of relief, embedded ball, etc etc.

And as has also been said (by me) - you're talking about luck of the draw with the natural landscape, whereas a divot is (usually) the negligence of another human being which makes it unfair to let that affect someone else's game.

 

[Imurg]

There are loads of areas open to interpretation in much the same way, like what constitutes a path or not, nearest point of relief, embedded ball, etc etc.

And as has also been said (by me) - you're talking about luck of the draw with the natural landscape, whereas a divot is (usually) the negligence of another human being which makes it unfair to let that affect someone else's game.

Negligence.??
Ever seen a crow turn a divot over.?
And you still need to define a divot.

 

[Orikoru]

Negligence.??
Ever seen a crow turn a divot over.?
And you still need to define a divot.

Do I? It's where a chunk of grass & earth has been removed with a golf club and not put back isn't it? I thought you would know that, you've been playing longer than I have.

 

[Imurg]

Do I? It's where a chunk of grass & earth has been removed with a golf club and not put back isn't it? I thought you would know that, you've been playing longer than I have.

The #1 reason for this debate
Some are obvious, some barely visible.
Where is the line drawn?
It's all down to definition and that's virtually impossible

 

[Orikoru]

The #1 reason for this debate
Some are obvious, some barely visible.
Where is the line drawn?
It's all down to definition and that's virtually impossible

As I said before, there are plenty of things already in the rules that are debatable and not black and white, all of which require integrity from you and your fellow golfers. You only have to look at the latest fortnightly Patrick Reed scandal to realise that.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Do I? It's where a chunk of grass & earth has been removed with a golf club and not put back isn't it? I thought you would know that, you've been playing longer than I have.

Yes it is. But 3 months later when the grass has grown back, is it still a divot then?

 

[Orikoru]

Yes it is. But 3 months later when the grass has grown back, is it still a divot then?

That's like asking when a man's hair has grown back, is he still bald? What do you think?

 

[chrisd]

There are loads of areas open to interpretation in much the same way, like what constitutes a path or not, nearest point of relief, embedded ball, etc etc.

And as has also been said (by me) - you're talking about luck of the draw with the natural landscape, whereas a divot is (usually) the negligence of another human being which makes it unfair to let that affect someone else's game.

I'm not sure a path, nearest point of relief or embedded is "open to interpretation" I'd say they were fact

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

That's like asking when a man's hair has grown back, is he still bald? What do you think?

I think your reply sums up the problem. You don't know when a divot is no longer a divot so the simple solution is play the ball as it lies.

 

[Orikoru]

I'm not sure a path, nearest point of relief or embedded is "open to interpretation" I'd say they were fact

Then you're not thinking hard enough. Often the end of a path isn't clearly defined as it reaches the end and sort of fades into mud. Nearest point of relief from said path could arguably be one side or the other depending on where the ball rests. And a ball could be embedded to different degrees, so at some point you have to draw the line and say it isn't embedded enough to get relief wouldn't you? They're not yes/no answers, you generally need to reach an agreement with those you are playing with.

 

[Orikoru]

I think your reply sums up the problem. You don't know when a divot is no longer a divot so the simple solution is play the ball as it lies.

My reply summed up the problem with your daft question, yeah.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

My reply summed up the problem with your daft question, yeah.

Jeez you really don't get it do you? How do I explain this in simple terms so that you can understand the issue Actually I can't be bothered, maybe you should stick to football.

 

[Imurg]

Then you're not thinking hard enough. Often the end of a path isn't clearly defined as it reaches the end and sort of fades into mud. Nearest point of relief from said path could arguably be one side or the other depending on where the ball rests. And a ball could be embedded to different degrees, so at some point you have to draw the line and say it isn't embedded enough to get relief wouldn't you? They're not yes/no answers, you generally need to reach an agreement with those you are playing with.

NPR is either one or the other - it's the nearest point. You don't get a choice.
A ball is either embedded or it isn't - if part of the ball is below ground level and stuck then it's embedded.
These are clearly defined.

 

[USER1999]

Then you're not thinking hard enough. Often the end of a path isn't clearly defined as it reaches the end and sort of fades into mud. Nearest point of relief from said path could arguably be one side or the other depending on where the ball rests. And a ball could be embedded to different degrees, so at some point you have to draw the line and say it isn't embedded enough to get relief wouldn't you? They're not yes/no answers, you generally need to reach an agreement with those you are playing with.

All of these examples are clear, to someone who knows the rules, and is not seeking unfair advantage.

 

[Crow]

I would say the cabbage isn’t a prepared area to play from .
The fairway is prepared for you to play from.
So a comparison can’t really be made.
Luck plays a part but we forget the good luck but do remember for a long time the bad luck.

I don't think that's strictly true, in fact I'm not even sure that the "fairway" is defined in the latest edition of the rules.

A quick check on randa.org reveals that the rules define five areas of the course, from which I'd guess that terms such as fairway and rough are just used by golfers for their convenience.

So the whole pretext for this poll is a nonsense!

 

[MarkT]

That’s why they annoy so much, because they are rare and they stand out in your memory.

I remember in the club champs, I finished in one which pointed off on a slicers angle,(not the best for a drawer of the ball), but it’s one of very few so really got under my skin for a while.

But I don’t really think the rule should be changed.

It’s also a shame that, for a game of honesty, one of the main reasons people say no is that people can’t be trusted to not take advantage of the rules.

Where did the shot go?

 

[Orikoru]

NPR is either one or the other - it's the nearest point. You don't get a choice.
A ball is either embedded or it isn't - if part of the ball is below ground level and stuck then it's embedded.
These are clearly defined.

They were just off the top of my head. I'm sure you could think of better examples where interpretation and agreement is required, if you wanted to.

 

[Orikoru]

Actually, generally the answers to those are fairly clear-cut according to the rules:

1. If you get relief from man-made surfaces, including paths, mud is not a man-made surface and isn't actually on the path, therefore no drop.

2. Nearest point is a specific place and is never normally open to debate. One one side of the path there will be a clear nearest point where the ball can sit and the ball and player are clear of the obstruction. Often this is determined by whether the player is left or right handed.

3. Very clearly defined in the rules. If the earth is broken and the ball sits in the indentation, it's embedded. Recent update, indentations made by forefingers don't actually count

I'm not describing it well, but I've seen it a number of times where a gravel path kind of ends gradually rather than abruptly, and you could end up on a bit which is some gravel some mud (usually at the end of the path) and you might have some debate with your fellow golfers about whether it's the path or not. It has happened to me anyway and I can only speak from experience.

Obviously there will be a factually correct point of relief but that doesn't mean everyone present will agree upon where that is does it? It can be difficult to come to an agreement sometimes.

Re embedded ball - I was just trying to spitball examples, that was obviously fresh in my mind due to recent incidents.