should she be allowed back in the UK?

[Deleted member 16999]

As I responded to D4S my position is whatiffery in any situation is pointless without evidence to back up a hypothesis.

I do not believe that she should be welcomed back and believe that she should bear the consequences of her actions. That can be balanced by the fact I know what the law states and am not in a position to change it.

I should add to the above that I don't like it but, unlike many it would seem, I accept that this is the case.

I do disagree with you on this point though because you have to consider every eventuality when making a risk assessment.

I think it’s as D4S says, all “what ifs” will have to be considered by the government and security services, including “rescueing” her in the hope of turning her or to get vital intelligence on other Brits who may of escaped the security services radar.

Maybe some golfers on a forum will waste their time doing the “what ifs” and not add much to the debate on a forum but I really don’t think it does any harm.

 

[USER1999]

I do disagree with you on this point though because you have to consider every eventuality when making a risk assessment.

Hmm, any sort of risk assessment, and there is no way she would be allowed back.

I was at Honeywell on Thursday, and you are not allowed to walk, and talk on a phone at the same time. You have to stop. Brilliant. No multi tasking.

 

[user2010]

Is that family the only one to suffer at the hand of extremists - shall we find pictures of Muslims , Catholic’s , White People ,Black Prior , Mixed Race, Indian , Chinese , Scottish , Welsh , Irish , Pakistan ,etc etc etc

There are thousands of families who have been destroyed by extremists all over the world.

What exactly does your post add beyond trying to point score and antagonise ?

Of all the nonsense spouted on the forum that’s prob the king of crap right there ?!

You seriously want to twist what people are posting to even slightly suggest anyone is supporting ISIS - that just beats anything spouted ?!?

Not one person on this thread who has posted is “supporting her” or supporting her beliefs and choices

Did you actually read that post back before clicking post !

Oh the irony!!!

 

[GreiginFife]

I do disagree with you on this point though because you have to consider every eventuality when making a risk assessment.

I agree, however what I said was without evidence. Every risk assessment I have done has been assessed on the evidence available. I don't jeopardise a delivery because I have a personally strong but ultimately unproveable feeling about something.

But in on the principal I agree that you must consider things. But for balance you should also consider the null hypothesis as well, IMO.

Anyhow, early start tomorrow. G'night chaps.

 

[Sweep]

Most of your posts so far in this thread just look like big blobs and rants - it’s hard to see exactly what it is you are asking and also what exactly you think people’s point is

You have said twice that I failed to answer your questions - I’m not sure exactly what your questions are as they seemed to get swallowed up within rants

So what I will do to clarify my point about this young girl

1. Do I want to see her return - nope but if she has committed a crime against the UK I hope she is charged and punished for that

2. Right now she is a British National by birth - so she has by the law the right to come back into the country , the UK authorities then deal with her

3. She has an innocent child who will be born soon and will be an British National - maybe she deserves to be given a chance

4. Do I believe it rehabilitation - yep , if she has been found to have committed no crime then imo she should be given the chance to show to change her views , if not then she stays in a secure facility

5. Do I believe some will judge her based on her religion - yes . Over the decades there have been other people who have been charged and found guilty of being terrorist sympathisers, there haven’t been calls for their British citizenship to be removed , same with many people that have carried out atrocities in the UK and indeed abroad .

6. Has she put shame on the Muslim community - well yes but I’m not sure anyone has said anything different

As I said just because someone isn’t part of a lynch mod and doesn’t want to see someone be killed doesn’t mean they automatically show support

There are still some people who believe in the law , the justice system and being able to change and show compassion - that for me is the difference between us and terrorists

Hopefully I have answered whatever question it you asked - if not god knows what you asked

The last time I “blobbed” was on a stableford score. I haven’t ranted. And I have to say, for someone who claims not to understand what I am posting (because it’s is “swallowed up by rants”) you certainly seem to take issue with most of it.
Anyway, much to your disappointment I am sure, none of this is about you or indeed me. In case it missed your attention the original question was should she be allowed back in the UK? We all know about British law and the justice system but - and I know this may be news to you - we are allowed to disagree with a law and think it too harsh or lenient. I believe it is understandable for people to feel frustrated that this woman can even raise the possibility of returning to a country she wanted to destroy. Especially as the only reason is so we can pay for the welfare of her unborn child and especially as she shows no remorse.
In answer to your points
1. If you get your wish and she doesn’t return, how can she be charged and punished?
2. She may be a British national but she is a sworn enemy of Britain. It’s understandable that people feel it’s wrong IF her citizenship cannot be revoked. Even so, without assistance it looks like she cannot return. Do you think we should give her such assistance?
3. Her innocent child could claim British, Dutch or Syrian nationality. In my view to protect the child he or she should be placed in care away from their mother.
4. Everyone seems to agree that she is showing no signs of remorse which surely would be the first step towards rehabilitation. They went to Syria prepared to die for their cause. One of them did.
5. The ISIS “Beatles” are the closest case in similarity to this. There have been plenty of calls for them to be stripped of their British status and not allowed back in. There have been a lot of calls for all returning ISIS fighters to be barred from entry and stripped of their citizenship. This is not unique.
6. She has not brought shame on the Muslim community, unless you think that all Muslims are the same and are all potential terrorists. No-one here believes that I am sure and that’s why the views on here have nothing to do with the fact that she is Muslim as you suggested. However, she and others have certainly made life difficult for Muslims living in Britain, particularly as the terrorist acts committed by ISIS are carried out in the name of Islam. This leads to mistrust which was all part of the ISIS grand plan to create a “race” war between Muslims and non Muslims.

 

[huds1475]

Nor do I but neither do I have the certainty to say she will blow people up.

Nor am I saying she is entitled. Entitlement implies deserving whereas I am saying that the law is such that deserving or not she cannot be stopped should she wish.

Sensible stuff mate.

The only problem I have is that she's aligned with a doctrine that's committed to the elimination, or forced subjugation, of non-believers. A doctrine that also teaches that being a martyr is a guaranteed fast-track to salvation in the afterlife.

I think that's a combination that makes these people (known widely as extremists) a little more unique / dangerous than others being quoted on these pages.

That being said, the law is the law. I might not like it, but until it changes, it is what it is.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

We all say things in the heat of the moment or when carried away which is all to easy when sat at a keyboard, however I think it's probably fair to say that 98% of us think she shouldnt be allowed back and thats our own opinion rather than legal status.

 

[Wolf]

The last time I “blobbed” was on a stableford score. I haven’t ranted. And I have to say, for someone who claims not to understand what I am posting (because it’s is “swallowed up by rants”) you certainly seem to take issue with most of it.
Anyway, much to your disappointment I am sure, none of this is about you or indeed me. In case it missed your attention the original question was should she be allowed back in the UK? We all know about British law and the justice system but - and I know this may be news to you - we are allowed to disagree with a law and think it too harsh or lenient. I believe it is understandable for people to feel frustrated that this woman can even raise the possibility of returning to a country she wanted to destroy. Especially as the only reason is so we can pay for the welfare of her unborn child and especially as she shows no remorse.
In answer to your points
1. If you get your wish and she doesn’t return, how can she be charged and punished?
2. She may be a British national but she is a sworn enemy of Britain. It’s understandable that people feel it’s wrong IF her citizenship cannot be revoked. Even so, without assistance it looks like she cannot return. Do you think we should give her such assistance?
3. Her innocent child could claim British, Dutch or Syrian nationality. In my view to protect the child he or she should be placed in care away from their mother.
4. Everyone seems to agree that she is showing no signs of remorse which surely would be the first step towards rehabilitation. They went to Syria prepared to die for their cause. One of them did.
5. The ISIS “Beatles” are the closest case in similarity to this. There have been plenty of calls for them to be stripped of their British status and not allowed back in. There have been a lot of calls for all returning ISIS fighters to be barred from entry and stripped of their citizenship. This is not unique.
6. She has not brought shame on the Muslim community, unless you think that all Muslims are the same and are all potential terrorists. No-one here believes that I am sure and that’s why the views on here have nothing to do with the fact that she is Muslim as you suggested. However, she and others have certainly made life difficult for Muslims living in Britain, particularly as the terrorist acts committed by ISIS are carried out in the name of Islam. This leads to mistrust which was all part of the ISIS grand plan to create a “race” war between Muslims and non Muslims.

1..she can be tried in her absence by a British court much like I'm a way somoen summoned to court that fails to show the judgements go ahead in absentia
2. According to the news just seen in TV tonight it's been reported that her citizenship can be revoked if found guilty of hate crimes towards the state.
3. That's exactly what would happen should she return to UK, tried and convicted. Certainly can't happen by our authorities to protect the child if she is left in Syria
4. I don't particularly think there's much remorse there from the reports I've seen but admittedly there's probably a lot more I haven't read that may show this, but remorse or not the guilty verdict of. Come to imo should stand remorse or not.


Problem in cases like this it's hard for people to seperate emotion and what they feel should be the outcome from what is right in the eyes of legality.

I don't believe she should be allowed back in, however if she is allowed back then should go through due process and face the law and be tried and convicted accordingly.

 

[backwoodsman]

Having read all through the thread, have decided to make one post, & one post only.

Should the British state make any effort to go and "fetch" her back. No. Should she be allowed back in if she makes the effort of her own accord. Yes. And, if she does, she should face the legal consequence of doing so.

As to the rest of the thread. Very heated and angry, and polarised. Well, it's a golf forum. Why would anyone expect the thread to have gone any differently to the way it has.

Thank you, over & out.

 

[Doh]

Didn’t she leave to join and support a terrorist organisation?

Yes she did and in my book that makes her a criminal.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The last time I “blobbed” was on a stableford score. I haven’t ranted. And I have to say, for someone who claims not to understand what I am posting (because it’s is “swallowed up by rants”) you certainly seem to take issue with most of it.

the Blob was referring to your posts which make it hard to read , just a block of words with question marks - and I do believe it was you that took issue with me and with the same tone of post you use in the Brexit “ I’m right your wrong” kind of way

Anyway, much to your disappointment I am sure, none of this is about you or indeed me. In case it missed your attention the original question was should she be allowed back in the UK? We all know about British law and the justice system but - and I know this may be news to you - we are allowed to disagree with a law and think it too harsh or lenient. I believe it is understandable for people to feel frustrated that this woman can even raise the possibility of returning to a country she wanted to destroy. Especially as the only reason is so we can pay for the welfare of her unborn child and especially as she shows no remorse.

I know what the original question was so I’m not sure why you keep repeating it , and many people have mentioned what she is lawfully allowed to do. And she we punish her child for her actions ?

In answer to your points
1. If you get your wish and she doesn’t return, how can she be charged and punished?

She can be charged and tried without her being there

2. She may be a British national but she is a sworn enemy of Britain. It’s understandable that people feel it’s wrong IF her citizenship cannot be revoked. Even so, without assistance it looks like she cannot return. Do you think we should give her such assistance?

No I don’t think we should assit her to a British Embassy but if she chooses to get to one then the law deals with the situation

3. Her innocent child could claim British, Dutch or Syrian nationality. In my view to protect the child he or she should be placed in care away from their mother.

Well that all depends on the mother and if she can care for her child

4. Everyone seems to agree that she is showing no signs of remorse which surely would be the first step towards rehabilitation. They went to Syria prepared to die for their cause. One of them did.

She is still young ,she has been radicalised, brainwashed - she has fled at the moment away from the movement which is a first step . The next step would be to see if she can be deradicalised. She has given one interview , could still be all a mess and still worried for her life , maybe she thinks it’s not the best to denounce ISIS whilst she is still within their grasp. As a compassionate country or first choice should be to see if we can bring out the caring girl her parents knew - it must be hard for anyone to judge what she was told and made to believe

5. The ISIS “Beatles” are the closest case in similarity to this. There have been plenty of calls for them to be stripped of their British status and not allowed back in. There have been a lot of calls for all returning ISIS fighters to be barred from entry and stripped of their citizenship. This is not unique.

I was judging her solely and her situation as opposed to ISIS as a whole - people were suggesting she has her British Nationality removed

Right now it’s not known what exactly she has carried out - there are people in the UK that have carried out atrocities- as i said - serial rapists , child killers , peodophiles , murders and terrorists - has she done worse then them ?

6. She has not brought shame on the Muslim community, unless you think that all Muslims are the same and are all potential terrorists. No-one here believes that I am sure and that’s why the views on here have nothing to do with the fact that she is Muslim as you suggested. However, she and others have certainly made life difficult for Muslims living in Britain, particularly as the terrorist acts committed by ISIS are carried out in the name of Islam. This leads to mistrust which was all part of the ISIS grand plan to create a “race” war between Muslims and non Muslims.

I have no doubt if this was a 15 year old white girl who left to be with someone from say the IRA but then wanted to return the reaction would be different

Over the past 20 years attitudes towards Muslims has remarkably changed and a lot of reaction is based on her being a Muslim - just my opinion

She is a young girl who was radicalised and brainwashed by an ideal - she was no doubt told she would be given a place upon high by being a wife and a mother to a in their eyes a Freedome Fighter , her parents lost their daughter so when a chance comes along to show that we aren’t like them and we can show compassion and teach the young girl that there is space on the world for everyone regardless of beliefs then we should take that chance and then also give her unborn child a better chance in the world.

Maybe we as a nation are becoming less compassionate and caring

 

[oxymoron]

Ok let me suggest something else to consider ,, we do not want her here , we can possibly try her for being a member\associate of a terrorist organisation or some other charge yet to be proved.
Why cant we just hand her over to one of the states that was overrun by ISIS and let them try her for assisting in the destruction of their country, the murder of their citizens and such like
i am sure she would be dealt with far better than we would . If she contributed to the terror and destruction of those societies i am sure they would like to dish out some of their justice
the same as they were subject to by her chosen caliphate .

Wont happen though we are too civilized, the polar opposite of what she set out to join up with.

Oh and LiverpoolPhil ,, i dont think we have become less compassionate and caring but i do think we are getting fed up with being taken advantage of .

 

[Blue in Munich]

Having read all through the thread, have decided to make one post, & one post only.

Should the British state make any effort to go and "fetch" her back. No. Should she be allowed back in if she makes the effort of her own accord. Yes. And, if she does, she should face the legal consequence of doing so.

As to the rest of the thread. Very heated and angry, and polarised. Well, it's a golf forum. Why would anyone expect the thread to have gone any differently to the way it has.

Thank you, over & out.

Sums it up nicely for me. I'd add one more thought; how many of us on here making judgements on her would not change some of the decisions we made or views we held as a 15 year old; would we actually be comfortable being judged on them today?

She was undeniably stupid or naive to think that the bed of roses she was being sold actually existed, but do any of us know what she was sold or what she was escaping from. On the lack of contrition, maybe she knows that anything she says will get back to ISIS and could make her life difficult.

I'll reserve my hatred & vitriol for those who turned her.

 

[Tashyboy]

Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire, it is estimated that 900 people left this country to fight / support ISIS. 360 Have returned, 360 have gone missing. Now it may just be me but I don't find that comforting. And it kinda makes a mockery of the " they will be tried when they return" comments.
Seems this woman is not an isolated case and glad to hear the Home Secretary will do al he can to prevent her return.

 

[Pin-seeker]

i dont think we have become less compassionate and caring but i do think we are getting fed up with being taken advantage of .

Spot on.

I reckon people would soon change their tune if they were directly affected by it.

 

[bluewolf]

Spot on.

I reckon people would soon change their tune if they were directly affected by it.

But that's vengeance, not justice...

Anyway, the timing of the release of this story is interesting. It's certainly taken pretty much everything else off the news rotation. It's got discussions raging up and down the Country. I wonder what it's taking focus away from? 🤔

 

[GreiginFife]

But that's vengeance, not justice...

Anyway, the timing of the release of this story is interesting. It's certainly taken pretty much everything else off the news rotation. It's got discussions raging up and down the Country. I wonder what it's taking focus away from? 🤔

 

[bluewolf]

View attachment 26598

I just asked the question.. You're the one who jumped to the (obvious) conclusion!!!!!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Ok let me suggest something else to consider ,, we do not want her here , we can possibly try her for being a member\associate of a terrorist organisation or some other charge yet to be proved.
Why cant we just hand her over to one of the states that was overrun by ISIS and let them try her for assisting in the destruction of their country, the murder of their citizens and such like
i am sure she would be dealt with far better than we would . If she contributed to the terror and destruction of those societies i am sure they would like to dish out some of their justice
the same as they were subject to by her chosen caliphate .

Wont happen though we are too civilized, the polar opposite of what she set out to join up with.

Oh and LiverpoolPhil ,, i dont think we have become less compassionate and caring but i do think we are getting fed up with being taken advantage of .

I think this thread is just a small picture of the outside world and the changing attitudes towards others and then add in the Brexit thread and you can see that people these days don’t care about others and we are becoming a selfish nation with little compassion. Social media has maybe fuelled that and given a lot of people a mouthpiece to spout off and create issues.

Religion imo isn’t a great thing BUT something they do seem to have is trying to ask people to show more compassion and caring of others - people these days want to see punishment and to see people suffer for their crimes but doesn’t seem to be any space for rehabilitation and forgiveness , yes it’s all words and at times the actions are harder and some people in many situations just won’t be able to forgive but there are many who aren’t directly affected by situations can maybe just take a step back and show a bit of heart.

I have no doubt people will call that “snowflake” etc etc but I do recall a saying

What sets us apart in a civilised country from the terrorists and dictators is out ability to show compassion and forgiveness - lets hope that doesn’t erode away

 

[Grant85]

Purely from a legal point of view, I don't imagine the UK can stop her entering.

When she is on UK soil, then of course she may have to face criminal charges. It may well be more difficult than you would think to fairly and legally convict her of anything, certainly anything that would come with serious jail time.

I see the Home Secretary has said he 'may prevent her return'. I think legally, he would be on shaky ground here - especially with regards to the unborn child.

I'd imagine the most likely course of action, if she returns, is she will face charges of inciting terrorism... assuming she isn't about to admit to anything and hasn't committed any physical crimes on UK soil and there is probably zero evidence that she committed an act of war.

And in all honesty... as a country we should be better than that. Show a 19 year old that this is a country tolerant and compassionate and are hundreds of times better than the philosophy and ideals of anything she encountered in the Middle East.

That is how to win the war on terror. Locking her up with or without trial or leaving her child to die in a refugee camp doesn't speak to me as a 'win'.