Scottish ref mark 2

[Deleted member 15344]

And if that is a drum the Scotish people still want to bang after they had a chance to become independent already then.... They should go. How often can you throw your toys out of the pram before it become obvious that your not a trusted ally?

Right now they aren't throwing toys out of the pram - they have a legitimate claim to be independent after the Vote. Scotland staying part of the U.K. after claims it would be for the benefit of keeping them in the EU - that's clearly turning out now to be untrue and they want to stay a part of the single trade market as they feel it's what is best for Scotland - nothing to do with trusted allies ( but even then why should they trust England after the last week )

 

[Alex1975]

Right now they aren't throwing toys out of the pram - they have a legitimate claim to be independent after the Vote. Scotland staying part of the U.K. after claims it would be for the benefit of keeping them in the EU - that's clearly turning out now to be untrue and they want to stay a part of the single trade market as they feel it's what is best for Scotland - nothing to do with trusted allies ( but even then why should they trust England after the last week )

Lol ye ok... Sadly the English, Welsh and Irish people who wanted to stay don't get to call for another referendum do they... They don't get to walk away. It's called democracy.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Lol ye ok... Sadly the English, Welsh and Irish people who wanted to stay don't get to call for another referendum do they... They don't get to walk away. It's called democracy.

Well I expect N Ireland will be next and will look to join with the Republic to make it all one Ireland.

The vote has a lot of consequences to the make up of the U.K.

Did you see the result of Scotland and N Ireland and indeed Gibralter - is that not also called Democracy when all three counties voted to stay in the EU - or does that not count ?

 

[FairwayDodger]

It's not what I want and it was you that said it. How quick and how often is the mood going to change? Are we the UNITED Kingdom, are just so until the "mood changes". Not a lot of time has passed and your claiming the mood has changed. If that's how quick it happens than sadly... Get it done.

And no, I don't get it....

Are you actually not keeping up with the news? Not a lot of time has passed but the world has been turned on its head. People I'd never have believed it of have told me they'd now vote for independence. I'm not one of those, incidentally, but I'm here and I speak to people about this so when I say the "mood has changed" I'm simply telling you that while a "yes" vote always seemed unlikely before it is now almost a certainty, especially if they get confirmation that Indy Scotland would be welcomed into the eu.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I think you don't get it. The mood has changed. This sort of immature rhetoric only fans the flames.

The mood has seriously changed.
I have four friends and family who are staunchly against the SNP. Three Tories one Labour/Lib Dem
I have always thought of them as my weather vane and if one or two of them switch to wanting an independent Scotland then it will happen.
Three of the four would now vote for an independent Scotland. I have not talked to the fourth one but would be seriously amazed if he switched.
The thing that many in England /Wales do not understand is that there is a fair amount of support for Independence from outside of the SNP.

 

[FairwayDodger]

The mood has seriously changed.
I have four friends and family who are staunchly against the SNP. Three Tories one Labour/Lib Dem
I have always thought of them as my weather vane and if one or two of them switch to wanting an independent Scotland then it will happen.
Three of the four would now vote for an independent Scotland. I have not talked to the fourth one but would be seriously amazed if he switched.
The thing that many in England /Wales do not understand is that there is a fair amount of support for Independence from outside of the SNP.

Exactly, and this is happening all over Scotland.

 

[Hobbit]

Well I expect N Ireland will be next and will look to join with the Republic to make it all one Ireland.

The vote has a lot of consequences to the make up of the U.K.

Did you see the result of Scotland and N Ireland and indeed Gibralter - is that not also called Democracy when all three counties voted to stay in the EU - or does that not count ?

No it doesn't count. The democratic process, in this instance, was based on a single entity, the UK, requiring a majority vote to stay or go. That vote was taken, and the result was Leave. Having declared the result for each country in the UK, because of the devolved parliament needing to decide on legislative consent, has led to the position we're now in.

For respect of democracy I would like to see each devolved parliament respect the single entity vote, but then raise the issue of independence as a separate piece of legislation.

Do I respect Nicola Sturgeon for using the vote the way she is? Absolutely not. I think her opportunism, on the back of turning her back to democracy is a disgrace. She isn't fit to be a politician, or maybe she is just what a politician is these days.

I would have far more respect for her if she'd acknowledged the democratic process, but then sought independence fairly rather than threaten to block democracy.

 

[DCB]

Are you actually not keeping up with the news? Not a lot of time has passed but the world has been turned on its head. People I'd never have believed it of have told me they'd now vote for independence. I'm not one of those, incidentally, but I'm here and I speak to people about this so when I say the "mood has changed" I'm simply telling you that while a "yes" vote always seemed unlikely before it is now almost a certainty, especially if they get confirmation that Indy Scotland would be welcomed into the eu.

Unfortunately this is becoming all too evident at the moment. People are talking from the heart rather than using the head. Yes things have changed in the past 20 months, but, there are a number of vital things that are not being taken into account this week. I fail to see how Scotland can afford to go it along in the present climate. The oil industry is in dire straits, so, what will underpin our economy. I really do fear for the future now.

 

[One Planer]

Are you actually not keeping up with the news? Not a lot of time has passed but the world has been turned on its head. People I'd never have believed it of have told me they'd now vote for independence. I'm not one of those, incidentally, but I'm here and I speak to people about this so when I say the "mood has changed" I'm simply telling you that while a "yes" vote always seemed unlikely before it is now almost a certainty, especially if they get confirmation that Indy Scotland would be welcomed into the eu.

Genuine question Karen.

If several current EU member's chose to Vito Scotland's approval, which is what we're hearing with Spain, for membership of the EU, how would that impact on an second independence referendum?

Yes, you'd be independent but not in the EU. Would that not leave Scotland in a massively worse situation?

 

[DCB]

Genuine question Karen.

If several current EU member's chose to Vito Scotland's approval, which is what we're hearing with Spain, for membership of the EU, how would that impact on an second independence referendum?

Yes, you'd be independent but not in the EU. Would that not leave Scotland in a massively worse situation?

Oh yes, we'd be bankrupt within five years 😯

 

[Val]

Genuine question Karen.

If several current EU member's chose to Vito Scotland's approval, which is what we're hearing with Spain, for membership of the EU, how would that impact on an second independence referendum?

Yes, you'd be independent but not in the EU. Would that not leave Scotland in a massively worse situation?

Sturgeon is not stupid. As much as independence is the end game she has bleated in about the EU that much that without a cast guarantee of admission I don't think she'd actively call for a referendum

 

[Deleted member 15344]

No it doesn't count. The democratic process, in this instance, was based on a single entity, the UK, requiring a majority vote to stay or go. That vote was taken, and the result was Leave. Having declared the result for each country in the UK, because of the devolved parliament needing to decide on legislative consent, has led to the position we're now in.

For respect of democracy I would like to see each devolved parliament respect the single entity vote, but then raise the issue of independence as a separate piece of legislation.

Do I respect Nicola Sturgeon for using the vote the way she is? Absolutely not. I think her opportunism, on the back of turning her back to democracy is a disgrace. She isn't fit to be a politician, or maybe she is just what a politician is these days.

I would have far more respect for her if she'd acknowledged the democratic process, but then sought independence fairly rather than threaten to block democracy.

Ever since the vote a lot of people have been throwing the word democracy around a lot

I didn't really think too much about it until I read this extract from someone's blog -

secondly, people telling me that this is democracy and I have to live with it. You know what? The referendum vote was simply one part of the democratic process, and as I keep mentioning to those who conveniently forget it, it was ‘Advisory,’ not legally binding. The vote itself is not ‘democracy’. Democracy doesn’t happen on one day for one vote and then go away again. Democracy is an ongoing process in which we are free to express ourselves however we see fit as long as we do not descend into hate speech (which I haven’t). Democracy is part of a process and is happening all the time. I have the democratic right to fight against decisions made on my behalf that I don’t like, and I don’t like this one, so I am fighting it every step of the way. Do not throw the word democracy in my face. It is not a trump card.

Here is the full blog - no doubt a lot will dismiss it as unqualified ramblings but some parts will strike a cord

https://katyboo1.wordpress.com

 

[One Planer]

Sturgeon is not stupid. As much as independence is the end game she has bleated in about the EU that much that without a cast guarantee of admission I don't think she'd actively call for a referendum

So. She's stokes up a wave of nationalism in the hope she hears what she wants from Europe's representatives. More and more joining the independence camp.

If she doesn't hear what she wants, any future membership post Brexit is off the table, has she effectively ended her political career?

 

[Pro Zach]

Interesting number crunching, pro zach, but you missed a huge segment of the electorate. Those that voted to stay in the uk knowing that meant they would also stay in the uk and who, if really pushed to choose, would pick the Eu over the uk. Impossible to say how many fall into this category, anecdotally it is a pretty big segment. I have been shocked by some die hard "no" voters who have said they'd consider independence if it meant they could stay in the eu.

It doesn't give me any pleasure to say it but if article 50 is triggered Scottish independence is inevitable.

I think you slightly miss my point. I don't know how huge 'that segment' is. As you said, “it is impossible to say how many fall into that category”. I am saying you can't use the two separate referendums, one of which is possible biased by nationalists, to draw conclusions. I would say that if the people are more pro EU than UK I would have expected a larger turn out for the EU referendum. But again, I wouldn't use this presumption as strong evidence.

I would expect at the moment to get the anecdotal evidence you suggest, because at first sight it could appear that the numbers mean what Nicola Sturgeon suggests. But if you had another referendum these numbers would be questioned.

Non of the evidence is strong enough to presume which union the Scottish people would prefer and in my opinion it is arrogant to assume it does. Only by asking them would we know what they want when push comes to shove.

As an aside, I think all political unions are destined to fail at some point, for various reasons. And I certainly don't think the EU will stand the test of time.

 

[Alex1975]

Ever since the vote a lot of people have been throwing the word democracy around a lot

I didn't really think too much about it until I read this extract from someone's blog -

secondly, people telling me that this is democracy and I have to live with it. You know what? The referendum vote was simply one part of the democratic process, and as I keep mentioning to those who conveniently forget it, it was ‘Advisory,’ not legally binding. The vote itself is not ‘democracy’. Democracy doesn’t happen on one day for one vote and then go away again. Democracy is an ongoing process in which we are free to express ourselves however we see fit as long as we do not descend into hate speech (which I haven’t). Democracy is part of a process and is happening all the time. I have the democratic right to fight against decisions made on my behalf that I don’t like, and I don’t like this one, so I am fighting it every step of the way. Do not throw the word democracy in my face. It is not a trump card.

Here is the full blog - no doubt a lot will dismiss it as unqualified ramblings but some parts will strike a cord

https://katyboo1.wordpress.com

Ohhh I see, random internet bloggers... Perfect, I'll stand down then, you have all the facts... It's laughable Phil, come on, your a smart cookie.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Ohhh I see, random internet bloggers... Perfect, I'll stand down then, you have all the facts... It's laughable Phil, come on, your a smart cookie.

What's the problem ? It's just someone's opinion - no one said it facts or said you had to stand down. If you don't agree with what the person is saying then fair enough - for me there is a good amount in there that sums up a lot of what I have seen and heard over the last 4 days. I suppose you could counter with some thoughtful points of your own instead of being dismissive of other or is it hard to do that whilst laughing at others opinions.

 

[Alex1975]

Are you actually not keeping up with the news? Not a lot of time has passed but the world has been turned on its head. People I'd never have believed it of have told me they'd now vote for independence. I'm not one of those, incidentally, but I'm here and I speak to people about this so when I say the "mood has changed" I'm simply telling you that while a "yes" vote always seemed unlikely before it is now almost a certainty, especially if they get confirmation that Indy Scotland would be welcomed into the eu.

It was not my intent to offend. I would very much like the UK to stay as it is. What I am saying is that if there is another referendum and Scotland vote to leave, that is how it should be. I believe in democracy. If the majority of Scots want to go, then make it so. It's going to get old fast if every time there is a bump in the road Scotland calls for a referendum it's going to get old fast, it's a bad look for Scotland and unsettling for the UK.

 

[FairwayDodger]

No I understood your point but was trying to highlight the flaw in it. Everyone here knows the landscape has changed just by talking to their friends, neighbours and colleagues. Your figures are already out of date, we've moved on, your analysis is wrong.

 

[Pro Zach]

So. She's stokes up a wave of nationalism in the hope she hears what she wants from Europe's representatives. More and more joining the independence camp.

If she doesn't hear what she wants, any future membership post Brexit is off the table, has she effectively ended her political career?

No. The Scottish referendum made independence inevitable. 45% of the people want independence. This is a large minority that will keep voting in a nationalist government. This means they have no real influence in the UK parliament and almost guarantees a Tory government. This party is working for the minority while ignoring the wishes of the unionist majority. This will lead to union membership being untenable.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Sturgeon is not stupid. As much as independence is the end game she has bleated in about the EU that much that without a cast guarantee of admission I don't think she'd actively call for a referendum

She's playing a blinder at the moment while the farce at Westminster shows no sign of settling down.