Scotland Debate

[Deleted member 15344]

Oh! What great sources of neutral politics. I should have quoted from the Daily Mail then :rofl:

You can point out where in the articles they have things wrong if you wish ?

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Never heard of the guy until today.But it does show there is a desire for UKIP in England, which I actually don't have an issue with...same goes for the small % of Scottish folk who also agree with (some of their policies...doubt the no sick pay/maternity pay/work contracts are too appealing)...they should be challenged and defeated or represented.

But it does look like there is a higher level of demand for UKIP in England than Scotland, so it's natural those campaigning for indy highlight this defection, and the inevitable move the Conservatives will have to make to keep their core vote happy....this guy won't be the last, and him and his type will help my cause, so I'm fine with it.

 

[Hobbit]

His defection just goes to add to a feeling that many in Scotland have that England is moving further from the traditional Scottish view on life and all that it brings us.

What is this Scottish view of life that England is moving away from - and what about the Welsh and nthn Irish?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What is this Scottish view of life that England is moving away from - and what about the Welsh and nthn Irish?

I am not saying it is a fact or indeed what it is - but there is a perception that whereas Scots have pretty much maintained their general socio-political views on things, England (in particular) has gradually moved away from what back in the 1950s was a roughly common position - when Scotland voted Tory. And the perception is that in the last 20yrs that move away has accelerated. I do not know if this is true, but it is certainly a view I have heard expressed and expressed as being fairly commonly held. And this simple and relatively unimportant act of a Tory MP moving to UKIP does nothing but strengthen that perception. And it strengthens an expectation that the Tories will move to have a position on the ground the UKIP is claiming on such as the EU and immigration.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

But at the recent Euro' elections UKIP took nearly as many votes from Labour as Conservative and 10% of the vote in Scotland.

Therefore, it would seem that it will be necessary for more than the Tories to appease UKIP and as the EU do not seem to be too welcoming to an independent Scotland UKIP would perhaps consider their job done in Scotland.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But at the recent Euro' elections UKIP took nearly as many votes from Labour as Conservative and 10% of the vote in Scotland.

Therefore, it would seem that it will be necessary for more than the Tories to appease UKIP and as the EU do not seem to be too welcoming to an independent Scotland UKIP would perhaps consider their job done in Scotland.

That may well in fact be true - I said that it is a perception held my many that may not actually be supported by the facts - pretty 'in your face' and clear as some of these facts may well be.

Truth is that much of the reasoning I have heard from YES and NO supporters on the whole debate makes me question rather the sense of holding referenda on important matters full stop. I only hope that with such large numbers voting the ill-informed or badly-informed on both sides cancel each other out.

Always been my concern over an EU referendum. The real plus points and negatives can be rather difficult to get your head around and (frankly) believe when you are assailed by wild and grand assertions from both sides.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Always been my concern over an EU referendum. The real plus points and negatives can be rather difficult to get your head around and (frankly) believe when you are assailed by wild and grand assertions from both sides.

But if the people don't decide who should make that decision.

I fear that you have more faith than I in our politicians.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

That may well in fact be true - I said that it is a perception held my many that may not actually be supported by the facts - pretty 'in your face' and clear as some of these facts may well be.

Truth is that much of the reasoning I have heard from YES and NO supporters on the whole debate makes me question rather the sense of holding referenda on important matters full stop. I only hope that with such large numbers voting the ill-informed or badly-informed on both sides cancel each other out.

Always been my concern over an EU referendum. The real plus points and negatives can be rather difficult to get your head around and (frankly) believe when you are assailed by wild and grand assertions from both sides.

Is this another view of "people at the golf club", "people at the pub", or one of your other sources that you have referred to in the past as the all knowing? You seem to have a tendency SILH to refer to vague perceptions, and opinions, that cover a wide range of people, that fly in the face of what many others believe. It always seems to come back to general groups, rather than being supported a bit more readily!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I shall take your 150 Business men/women's votes and raise it by 1million

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...ependence-1-million-sign-yes-pledge-1-3518108

 

[SocketRocket]

You can point out where in the articles they have things wrong if you wish ?

Lets start with all of them! :smirk:

Now; in your own words explain where they are correct !

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But if the people don't decide who should make that decision.

I fear that you have more faith than I in our politicians.

Maybe we should have a body like the Monetary Policy Committee to provide advice and guidance to the politicians and public alike on matters such as the benefits/costs/drawbacks of EU. In truth I do have a reasonable amount of faith in our politicians. I do not believe that they are all the same and just in it for themselves. It is an easy and lazy approach to take to dismiss and rubbish out of hand what our politicians say without actually bothering to properly understand what they say.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Is this another view of "people at the golf club", "people at the pub", or one of your other sources that you have referred to in the past as the all knowing? You seem to have a tendency SILH to refer to vague perceptions, and opinions, that cover a wide range of people, that fly in the face of what many others believe. It always seems to come back to general groups, rather than being supported a bit more readily!

OK - fair point I guess as I don't have any opinion polls immediately to hand to support my pov. But having listened to a lot of debates and read a lot of articles and message boards I can assure you that there is a section of the Scottish electorate that believe England has moved away from Scotland on many socio-political matters. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to but I believe it to be the case,

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Maybe we should have a body like the Monetary Policy Committee to provide advice and guidance to the politicians and public alike on matters such as the benefits/costs/drawbacks of EU. In truth I do have a reasonable amount of faith in our politicians. I do not believe that they are all the same and just in it for themselves. It is an easy and lazy approach to take to dismiss and rubbish out of hand what our politicians say without actually bothering to properly understand what they say.

I certainly do not subscribe to the view that they "are just in it for themselves".

However, I have little or no respect for "professional politicians", whatever their party who followed the well trodden path of University, intern, Research Officer, MP and then, if lucky, front bench.

It is the growing preponderance of these that makes me realise the benefits of a second chamber, (preferably elected).

As for understanding what politicians say, first one must consider the position from which they may be speaking and then strip their statements of "spin".

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

OK - fair point I guess as I don't have any opinion polls immediately to hand to support my pov. But having listened to a lot of debates and read a lot of articles and message boards I can assure you that there is a section of the Scottish electorate that believe England has moved away from Scotland on many socio-political matters. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to but I believe it to be the case,

I'm not disputing that, and I appreciate you are much wider read than me on this issue, but it could be a case of not listening to the voice shouting the loudest. As with the golf forum, the pov put across by many on here isn't exactly representative of the majority of golfers.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

OK - fair point I guess as I don't have any opinion polls immediately to hand to support my pov. But having listened to a lot of debates and read a lot of articles and message boards I can assure you that there is a section of the Scottish electorate that believe England has moved away from Scotland on many socio-political matters. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to but I believe it to be the case,

I find it hard to understand how this portion of the Scottish electorate to which you refer can make such a sweeping generalisation about the attitudes of the English voters. If an Englishman made a similar assertion about the Scots I cannot help but feel that he might be accused of stereotyping.


After all there are around ten English to every one Scottish so to paint them all the same political "colour" is lazy presumption to the point of arrogance.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I'm not disputing that, and I appreciate you are much wider read than me on this issue, but it could be a case of not listening to the voice shouting the loudest. As with the golf forum, the pov put across by many on here isn't exactly representative of the majority of golfers.

I think the plain fact that Scotland has one Tory MP and the UK is presently governed by the Tories [and a handful of dead men walking] speaks louder than any shouting voice.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I think the plain fact that Scotland has one Tory MP and the UK is presently governed by the Tories [and a handful of dead men walking] speaks louder than any shouting voice.

Up until 2010 the UK had a Labour prime minister. Are you really suggesting the political opinions of all of those in England have diverged massively over the last 4 years?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I think the plain fact that Scotland has one Tory MP and the UK is presently governed by the Tories [and a handful of dead men walking] speaks louder than any shouting voice.

The size of the average constituency in Scotland, particularly across the Central Belt, distorts the figures.

In 2010 the results in Scotland were :-



Labour 42% of the vote, 41 seats
Lib/Dem 19% of the vote, 11 seats
SNP 20% of the vote, 6 seats
Conservative 16.5%, 1 seat

So it would appear that when talking about under-representation you should really be concerning yourself with Scottish Conservatives and, to a lesser extent the SNP.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Up until 2010 the UK had a Labour prime minister. Are you really suggesting the political opinions of all of those in England have diverged massively over the last 4 years?

Yes, since Milliband was elected as Labour leader.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Yes, since Milliband was elected as Labour leader.

Remember folks this considered judgement of the English electorate was brought to you by DfT , your resident (in Scotland that is) expert on English voting intentions.