Scotland Debate

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It's not on the ballot paper, the vote is independence or not, there is no carrot to vote no

So anyone from Camp BT or indeed anywhere else who suggests that devo max might come along is being somewhat disingenuous and voters should simply take as FACT that devo max is not going to happen in the near or middle distance. And so any who vote NO on basis of any devo max expectations are deluded.

I have to suggest though that not having DM as an option on the voting paper does not in itself rule it out as a future for Scotland. Or maybe it does - no harm in someone from BT or Westminster just reiterating that fact - just in case there are any deluded souls out there. After all - the polls suggest that there are.

 

[Val]

SILH, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Right now, 100% fact, devo max is not on the table, voters can only deal in fact. I cannot see why you cannot and do not grasp this.

Anything else is hope or speculation.

 

[NWJocko]

SILH, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Right now, 100% fact, devo max is not on the table, voters can only deal in fact. I cannot see why you cannot and do not grasp this.

Anything else is hope or speculation.

He's been struggling for 78 pages of this thread...... :temper:

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

SILH, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Right now, 100% fact, devo max is not on the table, voters can only deal in fact. I cannot see why you cannot and do not grasp this.

Anything else is hope or speculation.

I grasp it fine - but some voters seem to think that DM IS an option that a NO will bring about in time. If it's not then BT just have to make sure that voters understand that fact. What is wrong with asking them to do that? Or is it that by not being so explicit some voters might still think it's on the cards and so vote NO.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

SILH, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Right now, 100% fact, devo max is not on the table, voters can only deal in fact. I cannot see why you cannot and do not grasp this.

Anything else is hope or speculation.

It can't be denied that both Labour and Conservative have both confirmed that additional powers, or the road to devo max, is being dangled infront of the electorate to help the No vote, can it?

 

[FairwayDodger]

It can't be denied that both Labour and Conservative have both confirmed that additional powers, or the road to devo max, is being dangled infront of the electorate to help the No vote, can it?

I think both sides are dangling their intangibles before the electorate....

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It can't be denied that both Labour and Conservative have both confirmed that additional powers, or the road to devo max, is being dangled infront of the electorate to help the No vote, can it?

Thankyou, thankyou A2D...

 

[Adi2Dassler]

I think both sides are dangling their intangibles before the electorate....

The SNP are offering a political view of how they, as a party, see Scotland after any YES win.Both the Labour and Conservative parties are offering certain additional powers to Holyrood if we vote NO.

So, The SNPs vision is obviously flawed to a degree, but we don't have vote them in.Westminster are nodding and winking saying, vote NO and get more powers, but what powers?If there is a desire to have more power in Holyrood, why not vote YES?

Which brings me back to a question I've asked many times before.Why is Westminster so keen to keep Scotland in the union?WE're told Scotland has the best of both worlds financially, so using that logic we'd be worse off independent, yes?Which also means The UK is providing more than our fair share to finance Scotland, yes?So why, if we're a financial burden, does Westminster/BT want to keep Scotland? No one has answered me that question.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Ach well, I thought it was funny.....

 

[FairwayDodger]

So why, if we're a financial burden, does Westminster/BT want to keep Scotland? No one has answered me that question.

Perhaps for the same reasons that some, such as myself, want to stay in the union and couldn't care less whether we were better or worse off financially as a result.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Have Westminster said that Scotland are a financial burden or is it a case of 2+2=5

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Perhaps for the same reasons that some, such as myself, want to stay in the union and couldn't care less whether we were better or worse off financially as a result.

Don't get me wrong, I'd pay more tax to be independent.Finances aren't driving me either.But they are the bedrock of both sides.BT tell us we're financially better off as part of the union, the best of both worlds.If we're better off as part of the union, we must cost the UK...so why so keen to keep us?

 

[FairwayDodger]

Don't get me wrong, I'd pay more tax to be independent.Finances aren't driving me either.But they are the bedrock of both sides.BT tell us we're financially better off as part of the union, the best of both worlds.If we're better off as part of the union, we must cost the UK...so why so keen to keep us?

Just playing devil's advocate on this one, as I really can't answer your question, but isn't there a possibility that both Scotland and rUK combined are stronger than the sum of their parts if they were separate?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Just playing devil's advocate on this one, as I really can't answer your question, but isn't there a possibility that both Scotland and rUK combined are stronger than the sum of their parts if they were separate?

Think that possibility is very high hence why I believe a NO will happen and not just stronger financially

 

[Val]

It can't be denied that both Labour and Conservative have both confirmed that additional powers, or the road to devo max, is being dangled infront of the electorate to help the No vote, can it?

But it's not guaranteed, dangle all they like the fact of the matter right now is it's not in the table, all that's been said is they'd consider it.

That is the big difference that seems to be missed by some.

 

[FairwayDodger]

But it's not guaranteed, dangle all they like the fact of the matter right now is it's not in the table, all that's been said is they'd consider it.

That is the big difference that seems to be missed by some.

They're just playing politics - those damned politicians!!

 

[Adi2Dassler]

But it's not guaranteed, dangle all they like the fact of the matter right now is it's not in the table, all that's been said is they'd consider it.

That is the big difference that seems to be missed by some.

Indeed.They're just as likely to remove powers from Holyrood.

 

[Val]

Indeed.They're just as likely to remove powers from Holyrood.

Absolutely, hence why I've bleated on about discounting devo max, it cannot be part of the equation unless guaranteed after a NO vote.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Absolutely, hence why I've bleated on about discounting devo max, it cannot be part of the equation unless guaranteed after a NO vote.

Impossible now. BT have blatantly played that card after Cameron refused to allow it on the card.So BT refuse to allow it on the card THEN muddy the waters by agreeing to some sort of devo max.Then BT demand clarity and specifics from YES.Both sides are guilty of politiking, but BT have learned their craft at the alter of it all..Westminster.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Impossible now. BT have blatantly played that card after Cameron refused to allow it on the card.So BT refuse to allow it on the card THEN muddy the waters by agreeing to some sort of devo max.Then BT demand clarity and specifics from YES.Both sides are guilty of politiking, but BT have learned their craft at the alter of it all..Westminster.

To imply that one set of politicians is lying more than the other set with regards to this whole debate, is being very one sided in my opinion.

Until proved otherwise, they are both lying, and guilty of "politiking", to equal amounts. It's what they do.

Just the one thought, when you refer to why rUK might want to retain Scotland despite the financial burden, is the belief of power in numbers, in my opinion. They likely feel they will hold more weight in international negotiations, with more people.

Oh, and because if Scotland goes, Cornwall might start bleating about being a seperate country, and I like cornish pasties too much for that.