Sad greens.....

[vig]

I have played with a few of the older guys and they don't even carry a pirch mark repairer.

I think they feel that it is below them to do a bit of "gardening", it's the green staffs job and isn't that what the subs are for.
I find that absoluteley astounding.
I could bury a wedge in their haeds sometimes

The worse bit about it is they are always critical about the younger lads. At least they do repair.

These are also the same members that had the rough cut back further on 3 holes because they kept loosing balls. FFS hit the ball straighter. It is not meant to be easy!

 

[Smiffy]

If I am playing a course with firm greens, I tend to club down, hit it harder, more height and more stop. If your ball flight is low, you have less chance of one "sticking".

Vig
I hear where you are coming from mate, and I'm not trying to be difficult here. But yesterday on our 12th (par 4).
Shortish hole, I didn't hit a particularly great drive down there, and had left myself about 140 with a slight breeze behind to go. The ball was sitting up beautifully in the fairway. Knowing (by now) that the greens weren't taking a shot I clipped a full PW the best I could. I could not have hit it any sweeter. Result? Massive great bounce and out through the back. The bloody ball most probably had snow on it when it came down. I couldn't have hit a ball with more height if I'd tried. 5 for 1 point and I had played the hole reasonably well. Any other year I would have hit that green and stuck with a shot like that.
So back to what I was saying, our greens are crap this year.
And it's still only May. What the hell are they going to be like in July and August????

 

[vig]

Use a softer ball

Frustrating!!!

 

[Smiffy]

Anyway its going to rain soon so you can play darts on soft greens again

I'm not after "soft" greens. I'm after greens that will "hold" a shot. There's a difference.
Carnousties greens are not soft. But you can stop a bloody ball on them.

 

[greensman]

You’re right, I was being slightly pedantic, sorry.

There is a difference between Hard and Firm. You all hear about ‘thatch’ but not many understand the problem with the stuff. If your greens have a thatch problem this will create so many problems. One problem during the summer is that the greens become Hard. When thatch dries it can set like concrete. Maybe this is an issue that needs addressing (maybe).

However, the first question is… are your greens Hard or Firm??? To find this out is simple. Your club should contact the STRI and ask for the greens to be tested for firmness. They use an implement called the ‘Thumper’ this is a measuring device that will tell you how firm your greens are and by how much.

When you have a definite figure to your greens your greenkeeper can work with it and alter accordingly. Good greenkeeping should be to get the greens as firm as possible, however hard greens should be avoided. Regular aeration with a micro solid tine will make the surface more receptive, use wetting agents & reasonable grass coverage will all help the ball bite & spin. The ball should ‘bite’ and spin…never ever should the ball sink into a pitchmark during dry conditions.

My argument is when we have firm greens and the amateur golfer complains, how many have the skill to spin the ball nowadays. I play with a tour pro and he can stop a ball dead on the firmest greens. Us amateurs see this on TV and think it’s the greens, its not! Good greens should be as firm as possible.

 

[Smiffy]

You’re right, I was being slightly pedantic, sorry.

There is a difference between Hard and Firm. You all hear about ‘thatch’ but not many understand the problem with the stuff. If your greens have a thatch problem this will create so many problems. One problem during the summer is that the greens become Hard. When thatch dries it can set like concrete. Maybe this is an issue that needs addressing (maybe).

The following has been lifted straight from the "greens report" on the members page of the golf club.....

"Recent scarifying of the greens
has resulted in approximately 1 ton of a mixture of thatch and poor root growth being taken
out of each green".

So I appreciate that we have had a problem that has built up over many years to get us into the state we are in today. My main question though was were other clubs suffering.
Trust me, I have played on firm greens before. I prefer firmer, faster running greens than greens that are too soft.
But ours, at the moment, are like bloody concrete.

 

[theeaglehunter]

I'm with Greensman here. I played on greens today which are in excellent condition in preparation for the Lagonda trophy next week (top amateur event won previously by many current tour pros), and yet I was struggling to stop the ball on them. This doesn't take away from the fact they were running / putting brilliantly, and also it didn't stop me spinning and checking chips and pitches from around the green. All the firmness did was make the longer approach shots difficult to stop, so I was just gripping down the club of the shaft and having to land the ball shorter...this to me is more skillful than hitting a towering pw pin high which bounces through the back- this would equate to poor club selection and therefore although a good strike, was not a good shot.

Even though I couldn't stop anything above an 8 iron within 10 yards today, I'm pretty sure when I watch some of the countries leading amateurs next week they will manage.

I do prefer softer greens where I can be aggressive and try and fly the ball to the pin and stop it, however I think it is unfair to criticise greens for being firm just because us higher handicappers can't stop the ball on them as easily. As long as they putt / run well, and take the spin from pitches around the green then that is fine with me (like my clubs greens currently). I can accept seeing a high 7 iron bouncing on through as inevitably I either took the wrong club or did not impart enough spin on the ball to warrant the ball stopping. It's all about allowing for the situation in golf and I think this is all part of the game.

(Smiffy this isn't in relation to your feeling about your clubs greens, which by the sounds of it are too hard like some muni greens i've played on where the ball doesn't kick on and roll through the back it bounces 20 foot in the air. It is just a general post about my opinion on 'firm' greens in general)

 

[greensman]

You’re right, I was being slightly pedantic, sorry.

There is a difference between Hard and Firm. You all hear about ‘thatch’ but not many understand the problem with the stuff. If your greens have a thatch problem this will create so many problems. One problem during the summer is that the greens become Hard. When thatch dries it can set like concrete. Maybe this is an issue that needs addressing (maybe).

The following has been lifted straight from the "greens report" on the members page of the golf club.....

"Recent scarifying of the greens
has resulted in approximately 1 ton of a mixture of thatch and poor root growth being taken
out of each green".

So I appreciate that we have had a problem that has built up over many years to get us into the state we are in today. My main question though was were other clubs suffering.
Trust me, I have played on firm greens before. I prefer firmer, faster running greens than greens that are too soft.
But ours, at the moment, are like bloody concrete.

So your greens do indeed have a thatch problem, and your club are trying to rectify the problem. The tricky thing is, the more water they apply (to make them soft) the more thatch they will accumulate. Its sounds like ‘Your club’ are going through a transition period at the moment. They will need your support, find out more from the committee and it may help with your frustration.

 

[KeefG]

I know KeefG quite liked them

I thought the greens at your club were quality Vig, like I said though i'm used to temple and as that is a muni you can imagine what they are like most of the time....fluffy & slow.

Yes the greens were very firm at your gaffe but I think the size of the greens make it very fair, there is a lot of landing/running area on these greens and it kind of evens itself up.

I'm quite an advocate for both types of green though, there's nothing better than playing when its just rained and being able to fire directly at the pin (it would be nice to have the ability to hit the bloody area of the pin though tbh ) but in the same breath I think firm greens have a place to play too.

However, small & firm greens would be a different prospect!

 

[greensman]

The thing is, we put so much pressure on the greenstaff to have the course open all year, we demand that our greens are free draining and playable in the wettest of days. We can’t expect them to hold onto the moisture during a dry spell. I know on my greens they drain superbly well, but when we hit the summer they become very firm. If I was expected to make them soft I would have to reduce the draining capability, thus reducing the winter / wet weather play. Simply irrigating regularly would not work and would create a host of problems for the greenkeeper.

I simply say… play the course as you find it & adjust accordingly

 

[vig]

Our greens are generally open all year. Taken out when it's frosty for their well being.

I am happy to play whatever they are as long as I can play.
Not many courses(unless you're talking links) play as well as mine in the winter.

 

[bobmac]

I thought this post was going to be about some peas and cabbage who had just had some bad news

 

[HomerJSimpson]

As I said earlier our greens have a problem with meadow grass and our green staff are attacking it by vari tining once a week and cutting low as the one thing meadow grass doesn't like is its roots being disturbed. They still don't look good but they are winning the battle and some of them are better after only a few months work. The point is they greens are still receptive and but are putting very true. I'm still taking more putts than my handicap (according to SS2) and I'm probably in a minority but I think our greens are pretty good thank you very much

 

[mono217]

Our greens arnt too good put I have holed out from everywhere.

 

[pigmeister]

We are a park land course and our greens are very firm at the moment, they are also getting more pace on them and are very true. If you have USPGA greens, we don`t, you need to water them regulary because they are sand based. But as greensman says, on most british greens, the more water you dump on them the more damage you will do. If you hit the right shot into our greens you can stop the ball, a little nippy one will stop quite quick. Do you really want to play target golf with soft spongy greens, good for the ego, smash a 5 iron in and stop it dead? Or work it out how to stop it hitting a good golf shot? You may not get a kind bounce every time, but who said golf was a fair.

 

[Smiffy]

Do you really want to play target golf with soft spongy greens, good for the ego, smash a 5 iron in and stop it dead?

No, I didn't say that I did.
But I'd like to see a very well struck wedge, coming in from great height with masses of spin at least stay on the green and not clatter out through the back.
Maybe I'm expecting too much for this time of year and should wait until January/February when they are all frozen solid again?

 

[inthehole]

Great thread - I wish more golfers would read things like this so that they appreciated some of the issues involved instead of thinking that because they mow their lawn at home they know how to manage greens!(NOT SUGGESTING ANY MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM FALL INTO THIS CATEGORY THOUGH!)
Thankyou to greensman for his comments.I personally enjoy the challenge and demands of playing on firm fast courses and greens.
I do understand smiffys point and I certainly would not dare to speak about someone elses skill but when I encountered similar conditions a few years ago on our course after a very dry Feb March and April good players still seemed to manage whereas my pitching wedge which I hit very high just took a massive bounce and just went through the green ( I am 11 handicap ). Those were exceptional conditions and we havent had greens as hard since then, possibly due to the work done by the greenstaff(our greens are hardly watered though, generally only to keep them greenish in the summer).

 

[Parmo]

My mate who was head greenkeeper at Moortown says at this time of the year/weather the greens need 15 minutes a night of water to get them growning and cut often, otherwise the greens bold and end up like pieces of crap.

Hard greens doesnt insire nice looking golf, my wife can top it 50 yards onto the green, but play a 50 yard flop shot within feet of the pin is something beautiful.

 

[viscount17]

over winter I think we have more water on our greens than any, like 3 feet!

as a result we go through a period of spongy, instant stop and get out the gardening gear. once they've drained and had a decent spell of wind and sun we get some good greens that hold up well through the summer. (though Dave was muttering about wanting rain the other day!)

drawback is though that any prolonged spell will have us fishing in cold muddy water for the ball.