Ruling needed

[jimjoachim]

Player hits a drive towards a clump of trees, not sure if its in over or short of trees so plays a provisional safely into play.

Goes up to look for ball but because of time constraints doesnt take the full 5 minutes and in not finding it in or around the trees plays the provisional up towards the green.

On walking up towards green he then finds the original ball. It had carried the trees and landed in the rough.

Should he play orginal ball or continue to play provisional.

To clarify, provisional ball was shorter than original and shorter than the trees where he was looking.

Cheers J

 

[Hendo007]

Am sure he can play the provisional before reaching the location of the first, if provisional is ahead of the location then he can't However if he searches and can't find and move on then its declared lost am sure.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I would say the provisional is in play because he's looked for the ball and didn't find it so decided to play the provisional. The 5 minutes would also have probably been up by the time he stumbled accross the original ball after playing the provisional.

 

[Crow]

If he's still inside the 5 minutes then he should play on with the original ball. You can't declare a ball lost.

 

[pbrown7582]

You can proceed with the provisional up to and beyond where the first ball is thought to be and then pick up if 1st ball is found.

 

[rosecott]

It hinges on whether the original ball was found within 5 minutes from the time the search for it started. Just guessing, but spending some time searching, then walking to the provisional, going through pre-shot routine, playing the provisional, walking on, then finding original ball - sound more than 5 minutes to me.

 

[sJoe]

HI I think this will answer your question..Rule 27-2...Player may play a provisional ball UNTIL he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the prov. ball from the place where the org. ball is likely to be then the original ball is deemed to be lost and the prov. ball becomes the ball in play..
So as I read it having played a second shot with the prov. ball that then became the ball in play, so finding the other one made no difference..I guess the player should have used his full five minutes.

 

[USER1999]

How long is five minutes though?

Any one ever put a clock on looking for a ball?

 

[Crow]

HI I think this will answer your question..Rule 27-2...Player may play a provisional ball UNTIL he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the prov. ball from the place where the org. ball is likely to be then the original ball is deemed to be lost and the prov. ball becomes the ball in play..
So as I read it having played a second shot with the prov. ball that then became the ball in play, so finding the other one made no difference..I guess the player should have used his full five minutes.

To clarify, provisional ball was shorter than original and shorter than the trees where he was looking.

OP stated that provisional was shorter than the original so 27-2 doesn't apply in this instance.

 

[jimjoachim]

the 5 minutes were def not up. having been given a warning from the warden to speed up the hole before a cursory look was only given for the original ball.

not sure if the player really gave the ball up as lost in their head. ball had headed towards the trees and i had suggested playing provo but other guys said it would be okay to find as rough wasnt thick and trees were bare underneath.

I think it could go either way - golf rules are so annoying lol

 

[sJoe]

OP stated that provisional was shorter than the original so 27-2 doesn't apply in this instance.

OK Mr Crow..so its Rule 27-2c then If the original ball is not lost or OOB the the player must abandon the prov ball and continue play with the orig. ball..other wise they are playing with the "wrong ball" and penalty strokes are incurred Rule 15-3 this time..
All one needs is a law degree...simples I dont think mmmmmm

 

[jimjoachim]

All one needs is a law degree...simples I dont think mmmmmm

Indeed

 

[MashieNiblick]

There is a relevant Decision on this.

"27-2b/3 Original Ball Is Beyond Provisional Ball; Player Searches Briefly for Original Ball, Plays Provisional Ball and Then Finds Original Ball

Q. A player's provisional ball comes to rest short of where the original ball is likely to be. After a two-minute search for the original ball, the player goes back, plays a second stroke with the provisional ball and then his original ball is found within the five-minute time limit. What is the ruling?

A. The player must continue play with the original ball. Play of a provisional ball does not render the original ball lost until it has been played from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (Rule 27-2b)."

The key elements are how long has elapsed since the search for the first ball and whether the provisional has been played from where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place. These are the factors that determine whether the first ball is "lost".

So if original ball was found within 5 minutes and the provsional ball was not played from or nearer the hole than where the first ball was likely to be, the original is in play.

Note the words "likely to be". There is another relevant Decision which clarifies the importance of those words.

"27-2b/4 Provisional Ball Played from Beyond Where Original Ball Likely to Be But Not Beyond Where Original Ball Found

Q. A player, believing his tee shot might be lost or in a road defined as out of bounds, played a provisional ball. He searched for his original ball but did not find it. He went forward and played his provisional ball. Then he went farther forward and found his original ball in bounds. The original ball must have bounced down the road and then come back into bounds, because it was found much farther from the tee than anticipated. Was the original ball still the ball in play?

A. No. The player played a stroke with the provisional ball from a point nearer the hole than the place where the original ball was likely to be. When he did so, the provisional ball became the ball in play and the original ball was lost (Rule 27-2b).
The place where the original ball in fact lay was irrelevant."

The Rules and Decisions are pretty good and usually ensure that each eventuality is covered.

 

[sJoe]

A. No. The player played a stroke with the provisional ball from a point nearer the hole than the place where the original ball was likely to be. When he did so, the provisional ball became the ball in play and the original ball was lost (Rule 27-2b).
The place where the original ball in fact lay was irrelevant."
So we're back to rule 27-2 then..I think??????????????? Im getting a head ache!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MashieNiblick]

OP says provisional was short of the place where the original was belived to be lost. So Decision 27-2b/3 seems to be the relevant one.

If it had been nearer then indeed 27-2b/4 would be the relevant decision.

 

[Foxholer]

I agree with Crow. When original ball is found, within the 5 minutes, provisional ball becomes irrelevant.

There is no such thing as 'Declaring a ball lost' - it is either deemed lost after by 5 minutes of looking or by player's action (not declaring a ball put in play as a provisional, by putting a replacement ball into play, or by playing the provisional from past - closer to the hole than - the original ball).

The Marshall should also get a boot up the backside if he asked the group to hurry during the ball hunting exercise. He should have waited until after the ball was found/lost before doing so, or actually suggested calling the group behind through - and should have helped in the hunt anyway.

And the Law Degree isn't what's required - as that would allow either side to be argued. Knowledge of The Rules/Decisions would be perfect, but a sense of 'What's Fair and Just' would generally make the 'best' decision - and the knowledge that it is permissible (indeed advisable) to play 2 balls, one under each possible interpretation, and seek a ruling on which was the correct one later.

 

[jimjoachim]

The Marshall should also get a boot up the backside if he asked the group to hurry during the ball hunting exercise. He should have waited until after the ball was found/lost before doing so, or actually suggested calling the group behind through - and should have helped in the hunt anyway.

The marshall didnt interupt the hunt. He had warned us the hole before as we had lost a hole on the group ahead of us (3 ball)

Actually this caused a bit of discussion in the clubhouse after and was thinking it may warrant its own thread.
Monthly medal and as a 4ball we finished front nine in less than 2hrs. We were then warned on 11 for slowplay and then this situation was on 12. We finished in around 3hrs 45.the club likes to get everyone round in less
than 4 hrs which is understandable but surely a bit of discretion should be used in a medal?? In the end all 4 of us submitted NRs 2 of which as direct response to marshall warning (didnt play 2nd ball). 1 maybe indirectly via rushing and losing the head a bit. 4th guy had given up card by the 4th lol

 

[Ethan]

So long as he has not played the provisional from closer to the hole than the original one lay, nor 5 minutes have passed, then the original remains in play and all shots with the provisional are cancelled. As others have already said, there is no formal declaration of lost ball available in this case except one of those who circumstances.

 

[rosecott]

Monthly medal and as a 4ball we finished front nine in less than 2hrs.

A 4-ball playing the front nine in a medal in less than 2 hours? On most courses you would get a medal!

 

[duncan mackie]

A. No. The player played a stroke with the provisional ball from a point nearer the hole than the place where the original ball was likely to be. When he did so, the provisional ball became the ball in play and the original ball was lost (Rule 27-2b).
The place where the original ball in fact lay was irrelevant."
So we're back to rule 27-2 then..I think??????????????? Im getting a head ache!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we never left rule 27-2 - it's the rule that covers provisional balls.

the OP stated "To clarify, provisional ball was shorter than original and shorter than the trees where he was looking."

as MashieN... has explained, this means that as long as 5 mins hasn't passed when the original ball was found it's in play in this case.

part of the problem with such threads is that you need to look beyond some of the headline statements made such as "When original ball is found, within the 5 minutes, provisional ball becomes irrelevant." As that poster later covers the provisional ball is relevant but as long as it was only played from a position short of where the original was believed to be it remains a provisional ball.