Rules question to settle an argument

[Dodger]

I have found this........confused? You will be....

When out of bounds is defined by a line on the ground the line itself is out of bounds

It then carries on to say in the next paragraph...

a ball is out of bounds when all of it is out of bounds....

 

[Cernunnos]

In other words if the line itself is out of bounds, anything laying on the line is also out of bounds.

Can I hear echos of a famous Tennis Star shouting chalk dust somewhere in the distance.... rofl.

 

[JezzE]

Dodger,
Even though I'd just been on the R&A Refs' School in St Andrews, I did actually put a call in 10 mins ago to one of my contacts in the Rules department there to confirm things. I was 95% sure, but you'd got me doubting myself a little, so wanted to be 100% sure before replying. (When you get the June issue, and see the opening image to the Ref's School piece you'll understand why this Rule was so fresh in my mind!)

Anyway as Cerunnos says, in answer to the OP, the only option available is to go back under penalty of stroke and distance if the ball really could not be played even with a stabby putter nudge.

 

[Dodger]

Right then it appears I am wrong but why does it state that 'When out of bounds is defined by a line on the ground the line itself is out of bounds'??

Page 39 of rule book......am I missing something somewhere then?

 

[JezzE]

Dodger,
I agree - it does at first leave you scratching your head a little.
But when you think about it, it does make sense if you break it down into three logical steps

1) The line denotes out of bounds
2) To be out of bounds, all of the ball must lie out of bounds
3) Since all of the ball does not lie beyond the line, the ball must be in bounds

You do wonder whether it could have perhaps been worded better or more clearly, but I guess the R&A would say it is all there if you read it carefully?

 

[Cernunnos]

dodger I don't think you are missing anything. If the ball was resting against the post marking out of bounds, but not on the line between posts, (in other words against the metal fence itself.) So the ball could be deemed to be inbounds in this case as it was not on the line between the marker posts but against the marker post on the inbound side.

Thing is I started to get alarm bells ringing in my head as I questioned myself as to whether anything directly touching the marker post would be deemed to be out or in.

Couldn't find what I was looking for. I know I've read something in the past relating to "A ball resting against the marker post is deemed to be...." But memories being what they are I need to find the quote.

To be honest Dodger in absence of the evidence I was trying to remember & find I'd simply do what I deemed fair & declare that the ball wasn't on the line so is actually inbound & in play, but in a position the player could deem unplayable.

 

[jammydodger]

Cant see a reason why he couldnt nudge it sideways , if not then its got to be stroke and distance imo

 

[backwoodsman]

Seems to me people are getting sidetracked by the fence being the OOB fence. Either the ball is out of bounds, or it's not and it's still in play.

If ball is still in play the OOB fence is not an obstruction (see definitions) so your only option is to proceed under rule 28 (Unplayable)

If scenario is as described, then option 28b) (drop behind ball keeping in line with the hole) and option 28c) (within two club lengths not nearer the hole) are likely to be no goers. Which leaves the only alternative of 28a) - going back under penalty to where previous shot was played.

If ball is out of bounds, then your only option is to go back and play another.

Whether it's in bounds or out of bounds is a matter of fact and I'm steering clear of the argument as to what counts as in and what counts as out

 

[Twire]

Thinking outside the box..

If the balls 1" away from a metal fence, could it not be putted against the fence and get a rebound off?

 

[Cernunnos]

Twire I like your thinking. However, tbqh I do think although I've not seen the exact situation, I'd say from the discription the ball is best declared Unplayable & as all the other options seem undoable its back to where the ball was previously played & drop another one under penatly of stroke. There is no guarentee where any rebounded ball will end up it could end up behind a tree, it might go through the wire fence, unlikely though I've seen it happen. Once you try & play a shot, the option to go back & drop the ball somewhere convinient evaporates & you're left trying to hack out of lord knows what.

Again I like the idea, but as I say sounds risky. Though its the sort of daft thing I'd try, If I saw the shot as one I'd take on. But that's by the by.

 

[JezzE]

Have to say I'm with those looking to play the ball if at all possible, even if it's with the toe of a putter. If you can move it even just two or three feet to somewhere where the swing is unimpeded, it has to be easier to get down in two from greenside than from stroke and distance country - depending of course, how far out the original approach was?

 

[mono217]

I have always thought you would have to play the ball from where you played your last stroke from with a one shot penalty

 

[Cernunnos]

Have to say I'm with those looking to play the ball if at all possible, even if it's with the toe of a putter. If you can move it even just two or three feet to somewhere where the swing is unimpeded, it has to be easier to get down in two from greenside than from stroke and distance country - depending of course, how far out the original approach was?

That's the thing JezzE, if he's thinned it something rotten & is up against/near the fence, chances are its probably as far from the green & or pin as he may have been before taking the shot that got him there. & most wire OOB Fences I know, there is usually that much undergrowth & trees that a well equipped platoon of Gurkas would have trouble getting you out. Hence my gut reaction that simply taking your medicine & going back to previous position may oft be the best solution, unless as I also stated, you can see the shot you can make. As its nearly always better to get some sort of shot on a ball if you can, though each situation is different. But of course now we are talking semantics.

I think we'd need to be there & see exactly what the problem is