Rules again....

[Timberbonce]

I have just moved clubs to Romanby golf club. It has a few water hazards that I am not used and a few times I and the guys I have played with have come up against a couple of rule questions:

A guy hit his second shot from the fairway approx 200 yards and we couldn't see from there if it had gone into the red staked hazard or not, thevguy then dropped a ball and called it a "provisional", we then got to where his ball landed and we couldn't find it and so assumed it had gone onto the hazard. We then made him play his provisional ball but he thought he could drop one where it went into the hazard.

Which is correct?

And also, if you don't find and identify your ball in the hazard can you assume it's in there and drop one or do you have to declare it lost?
(there is out of bounds immediately beyond the hazard)
Thanks guys.

 

[Ethan]

You can't play a provisional for a ball lost in a hazard. You must proceed under the usual rules for hazard.

If there is really a reasonable doubt whether the ball is in the hazard, then the provisional is in play. You must be reasonably certain the ball is in a hazard to drop. If playing partners disagree, can't really be certain. Sounds like you were right and he was wrong.

 

[Timberbonce]

We didnt really doubt that his ball was in the hazard it was the fact that he had played a provisional ball before we could stop him and then when he couldn't find his ball he said oh it must be in the hazard (which it probably was) and then said he would drop a ball where it entered. We just thought that seemed wrong as he had already replayed the shot from the original position. It's the fact that he called it a provisional that confuses it.

 

[Leftie]

As I understand it, you can't/don't play a provisional if a ball is thought to have gone into a water hazard. It is a matter of fact (or near certainty) if it is in so a penalty drop is taken in accordance da di da di da....

However, if when you get to the location and there is doubt that it went in, over, o.b., lost, then you go back and replay under penalty.

Could be wrong though.

 

[chrisd]

As I understand it, you can't/don't play a provisional if a ball is thought to have gone into a water hazard. It is a matter of fact (or near certainty) if it is in so a penalty drop is taken in accordance da di da di da....

However, if when you get to the location and there is doubt that it went in, over, o.b., lost, then you go back and replay under penalty.

Could be wrong though.

Not so sure. So long as you are reasonably sure that it went into the hazard you drop according to the rules and any provisional doesn't get played.

If you look for the ball and there is a doubt that it went in to the hazard then you could look for 5 minutes and play the provisional (under penalty) but I would suggest that the act of playing a provisional would suggest the the players is neither "certain or virtually certain" that the ball went into the hazard as is required by the rules because, if he was "certain or virtually certain" he wouldn't need to consider a provisional!

Chris
Chris

 

[sawtooth]

You have to be sure beyond any reasonable doubt that the ball went into the hazard for you to take a drop. If there is doubt you must go back to the tee or wherever the ball was last played and play from there.

I think you are always entitled to play a provisional. Sure if you see the ball plop straight into the hazard then theres no need but others must agree.

 

[Tommo21]

A guy hit his second shot from the fairway approx 200 yards and we couldn't see from there if it had gone into the red staked hazard or not, thevguy then dropped a ball and called it a "provisional", we then got to where his ball landed and we couldn't find it and so assumed it had gone onto the hazard.

Going by the above, he should not have hit a prov....when he hit that second ball that was his ball in play. You only hit a prov if you think your ball may be lost outside a hazard not in it. Now, If there was rough where the ball could be lost before the hazard line then he could call a prov as it could be lost in there.

 

[sawtooth]

I agree. If they were not sure that it went in the provisional would be played because he's ball was lost (not in a hazard).

He was right to hit a provisional in the first place in case he couldnt find his original, thats he's prerogative.

If half way around there's a dispute of the rules isnt it customary to hole out with both balls and then take the card to a referee afterwards before its signed?

 

[Timberbonce]

If half way around there's a dispute of the rules isnt it customary to hole out with both balls and then take the card to a referee afterwards before its signed?

I agree but he couldn't be bothered so he just begrudgingly played the provisional. It was in thecmiddle of the fairway, it just could have been down by the green. The thing is we were all saying to him " you can drop one down there if it's gone in" but he dropped it and played it. I think that by the time he walked up there he had calmed down and realized his mistake and that's when he said " I'll drop one here and pick up my provisional.
My argument was that we had given him the chance to call it "in the hazard" should he not find it just out side it.so when he played a provisional he was basically saying he wasn't sure that it had gone in there, so when he couldnt find his ball (it could have been in the rough before or oob over) he was obliged to play the provisional ball.
It is one of those funny situations that some times occurs where it seems very opn to interpriitation of the rules.

 

[slimbomber]

We have this query raise it's head a few times at my club from many an experienced golfer, the course has a couple of ponds in front of greens and dykes running across and aside of many of the fairways, over the years I've heard 'it must have gone in', 'that's the line it was going' and all followed with 'i'll drop it here' or 'I'll play another if we can't find it', does my head in and when I tell em you've got to see it go in otherwise how do you know it went into the hazard and they think you're being harsh and cheating them.

 

[chrisd]

does my head in and when I tell em you've got to see it go in otherwise how do you know it went into the hazard and they think you're being harsh and cheating them.

I dont think that you have to see it go in, although if you do then it is certain that it's "in" under the rules. You can also be virtually certain that it must have gone in and, therefore, if the ball heads straight for the hazard, you see it land but not finish and there is virtually no other place it could be (in the rough, oob etc) then it would be right to accept that it must be in the hazard and drop accordingly.We have a few hazards at our club like that and players usually agree that it must be in the hazard if it isn't found as soon as the shot is played, this saves playing provisionals but we would only do this if the circumstances were that the ball really must be in the hazard or it would definitely be found.

Chris

 

[Imurg]

If you have a pond that is out of sight from the point of playing the shot and the is nothing but short grass around it, if a ball goes towards it and cannot be found then you can be virtually certain that it has gone in. Previously you had to be 100% certain and if you can't see it go in then you can't be 100% certain. But now, if there's no other place it could be, you can assume its gone in.

 

[viscount17]

we have several opportunities for a ball to vanish in these circumstances, as mine did in the last medal, we had seen it make the corner and head for a tree but no-one saw it finish. it was odds-on that it had gone in the lake but too much weed to see it, so it was back to the tee.

didn't mind too much as I hit the shot I'd hoped the first would be.