Rule when hitting the rope of a temporary fence

[rulefan]

it would be very old fashioned and no doubt pretentious to write hôtel.

What a long way we are from a golf ball hitting a rope.

There are many golf courses adjacent to hotels (and sometimes hotêls) where ropes border the gardens

 

[guest100718]

True......but it takes just as long to type poor English as it does correct English and it is so much easier to read when grammatically correct :thup:

n it dusnt

 

[palindromicbob]

n it dusnt

th3 im0rtant thin6 i5 gett1ng y0ur me55ag3 acr05s

 

[rulefan]

n it dusnt

That is grammatically correct of course but the speling is a bit iffy.

 

[tobybarker]

resurrecting old threads is usually verboten, but I'm not sure a concrete resolution was reached....we have the same issue and I think the ropes and stakes should be IOs....a simple solution to the issue...however the club wishes to put in place a derivation of E11.....is it still true that we'd need to seek authorisation from the governing body to do so?

 

[doublebogey7]

resurrecting old threads is usually verboten, but I'm not sure a concrete resolution was reached....we have the same issue and I think the ropes and stakes should be IOs....a simple solution to the issue...however the club wishes to put in place a derivation of E11.....is it still true that we'd need to seek authorisation from the governing body to do so?

I believe you would, and I'd be a little surprised if they granted it, given there are other local rules available for this purpose.

 

[tobybarker]

there are? I didn't spot one.. I'll take another look. seems easier to just declsre them all IOs.....or, indeed, MOs.

 

[doublebogey7]

there are? I didn't spot one.. I'll take another look. seems easier to just declsre them all IOs.....or, indeed, MOs.

There the LR's I am referring to.

 

[salfordlad]

What is the issue? The rules give clear guidance and these things are in existence all over the planet. If your ball hits these things it is play as lies (11.1). If you have interference you get relief depending on whether it is movable obstruction (15.2) or immovable obstruction (16.1) and a Committee is free to declare them as immovable if they wish. IMO, any E-11 derivative (any ball contact and stroke must be replayed) would be inappropriate and would require approval by the governing body - and I would be surprised if they agreed.

 

[rulefan]

I believe you would, and I'd be a little surprised if they granted it, given there are other local rules available for this purpose.

I know of a number of courses built on pasture land where the greens are protected by wire fences (sometimes electrified) to keep cattle or sheep off the greens. These all use a version of LR E-11 but I believe Beverley have an optional replay.
A few years ago I wrote to the R&A when we introduced such barriers as yours. It was forwarded on to England Golf for their response as the National Governing Body who recommended treating them as TIOs.
They didn't comment on my suggestion of E-11. But we went for E-11 anyway as it was easier to understand.

 

[salfordlad]

I know of a number of courses built on pasture land where the greens are protected by wire fences (sometimes electrified) to keep cattle or sheep off the greens. These all use a version of LR E-11 but I believe Beverley have an optional replay.
A few years ago I wrote to the R&A when we introduced such barriers as yours. It was forwarded on to England Golf for their response as the National Governing Body who recommended treating them as TIOs.
They didn't comment on my suggestion of E-11. But we went for E-11 anyway as it was easier to understand.

All very interesting, but the OP is asking about 'temporary rope fences to keep buggies/trolleys away from the greens'.

 

[Colin L]

resurrecting old threads is usually verboten, but I'm not sure a concrete resolution was reached....we have the same issue and I think the ropes and stakes should be IOs....a simple solution to the issue...however the club wishes to put in place a derivation of E11.....is it still true that we'd need to seek authorisation from the governing body to do so?

In the first place, it's disappointing that it should be necessary to put up a rope to stop players taking buggies (really?) or trolleys on to a green but assume your club has tried and failed to prevent it by edict backed up by some disciplinary action pour encourager les autres? Have any offenders been disqualified under Rule 1.2a, penalised a couple of strokes under a Code of Conduct , shown the door? Does it happen often enough to require greens to be roped off? How often, say in the last season? How much extra greenkeeping time does it cost considering the ropes and stakes have to removed and replaced every time the area is mown compared with the time repairing any damage done to the greens?

Prevention should start and be effective before players are on the course but if you can't educate or discipline members into keeping wheels off greens, I'd suggest you leave the ropes and stakes as they are by Definition - movable obstructions. It's simple and doesn't need a local rule. If there is concern about a ball being deflected by it, use these low metal hoops rather than stakes and ropes. Less intrusive and much easier to take out and put back in.

TIO doesn't seem appropriate for what is likely to be a permanent fixture. A fence round a green that is essential as a physical barrier to livestock on the course is a very different matter. Cows can't be expected to understand caring for the course and respecting the sanctity of putting greens; golfers can.
E-11 isn't appropriate for the simple reason that a rope voluntarily placed round a green isn't the same as power line over which the club has no control and not, in my view, anywhere close enough to justify a "derivative" LR. So yes, I reckon you would need to seek authorisation of one and good luck with that.

I expect there would some trouble with players not putting stakes or whatever issued back in place. But that's back to dealing with the behaviour of members. I don't know of that as a particular problem on my own course, but we don't have members taking trolleys or buggies on to putting greens in the first place. Not because of any overt action by the club: we just don't do it. It's something of an eyeopener to learn that you have people who do. What we do see is a persistent failure by some to repair pitch marks and/or rake bunkers. Perfect we are not.?

 

[backwoodsman]

I suspect the problem is not so much taking trolleys onto greens but taking them near greens? As is common. Unless the fence is unusual compared to the norm, then by definition they will be movable obstructions - which ought to be solution enough under the rules. But obviously the club thinks not. (People move them and not put them back perhaps?) So next obvious step is to declare them as immovable obstructions. That may solve the problem of folk moving them (but may be not) but then begs the question of what happens if the ball hits them. Most places would say just suck it up and play the ball as it lies. But that this is problematic in this instance suggests the club thinks this isn't idea/fair/whatever? So are looking for another solution? E11 specifically refers to power lines - which, as Colin says, are normally outwith the control of the club. These are clearly not power lines, nor are the same thing as to which Rulefan refers (although, I'd suggest those are usually electrified?) So, yes, I think you'd need approval to modify the model rule.

My view is that it seems to be 'mountain out of molehill'. Either educate the membership, or make the fences immovable and treat them as part of the challenge of playing the course. Play over them, or under them, but tough if you hit them. Just like any other immovable obstructions.

 

[DickInShorts]

ColinL - Several clubs up here use temporary rope fences in winter to keep traffic off worn areas of the course .

They aren’t used to keep trollies off greens!

 

[rulefan]

All very interesting, but the OP is asking about 'temporary rope fences to keep buggies/trolleys away from the greens'.

That is exactly what I asked the R&A about.

"A few years ago I wrote to the R&A when we introduced such barriers as yours". I even included a photo of them.

I suspect the ones in question are to protect the surrounds of the green rather than the green itself. Although most players avoid taking trollies between the green and greenside bunkers, this not always done if the bunkers are further away and in winter conditions a muddy 'path' can be the result.
As it happens, we have moved away from E-11 and now have very short red and white stakes (IOs) placed about 18" apart bounding the two areas affected. As players are chipping to the green they have little or no affect on play.

 

[Colin L]

ColinL - Several clubs up here use temporary rope fences in winter to keep traffic off worn areas of the course .

They aren’t used to keep trollies off greens!

Yes, of course, mine too, but as you say not to keep wheels off greens. I've never even considered making the ropes and stakes immovable obstructions. If one is in your way you take a stake out and lower the rope and you put it back when you've played. It's just never an issue.

 

[tobybarker]

the ropes will only be there until we play qualifiers again. until such time are we still obliged to default to io or mo, or could we actually do what some want, which is to treat them like power lines and get to replay of we hit them

 

[jim8flog]

the ropes will only be there until we play qualifiers again. until such time are we still obliged to default to io or mo, or could we actually do what some want, which is to treat them like power lines and get to replay of we hit them

No. They are obstructions and it is the same as hitting as hitting any obstruction.

Relief for hitting a power line (or supporting post) is a specific LR. it should also be born in mind that clubs do not have to have this rule and it is compulsory replay the shot.

 

[Jigger]

Probably should of taken the poles out as usually do but was only just of the green and assumed i wouldn't hit it so was a little bit annoying to see it throw it right of course but least i played it from the correct spot and only dropped one. Even with that and a double and a triple still managed a 78 which was my lowest score since June.

Yep. Your choice not to move a moveable obstruction I’m afraid. It is annoying when it happens though. I religiously put them down now (and replace )