Rule 14-5

[cliveb]

This is not about what Phil did in the US Open, but that incident is the thing that has made me think and prompted this question...

Rule 14-5 states that a player must not make a stroke at a moving ball. And the definition of a stroke is the forward movement of the club with the intention of playing the ball. You don't have to actually make contact - an air shot is still a stroke.

Now: A few days ago, one of my FC's was in a bunker. His shot out hit the lip and the ball came back into the bunker close to where he was standing. While the ball was on its return path, in a fit of frustration he swiped at it in mid-air with his wedge. Although it was a spur-of-the-moment act, he did clearly try and hit the ball. At the time I said "it's lucky you didn't hit the ball", but now I'm wondering if that "air shot" was nevertheless a stroke at a moving ball and he was subject to a 2 shot penalty. I'd be interested in the opinions of our resident rules experts.

 

[Colin L]

I think we need to consider that part of the intention in making a stroke is to progress your ball in the direction of the green/hole. The frustrated swipe you describe does not seem to have that intention. I would need to ask the player what his purpose was in what he did. If his answer was along the lines of being just so hacked off that he took a swipe at the ball in anger, I wouldn't reckon on that being a stroke. And in keeping with that, because he missed he did not commit a breach.

 

[cliveb]

I think we need to consider that part of the intention in making a stroke is to progress your ball in the direction of the green/hole. The frustrated swipe you describe does not seem to have that intention. ]I would need to ask the player what his purpose was in what he did. If his answer was along the lines of being just so hacked off that he took a swipe at the ball in anger, I wouldn't reckon on that being a stroke. And in keeping with that, because he missed he did not commit a breach.

Thanks for your view on this.

The only thing that confuses me is your statement that the intention of making a stroke is to progress the ball towards the hole. I don't see that in the definitions, which just says that there be an intent to strike at and move the ball. Have I missed something?

 

[User101]

Were you aware of said rule before the weekend ?

 

[pogle]

Up until 2012 there was a decision that covered this exact scenario. (14/6 in the 2010-2011 Decisions book if anyone is suffering from insomnia). The answer contains the words "such an instinctive swing in anger is not a stroke" and determines that there is no penalty unless the player actually hits his ball, where a penalty would be incurred for accidentally deflecting his ball.

I have no idea why this decision has been removed.

I'd agree with Colin's ruling which seems instinctively correct given the "intention" requirement for a valid stroke.

 

[Colin L]

Thanks for your view on this.

The only thing that confuses me is your statement that the intention of making a stroke is to progress the ball towards the hole. I don't see that in the definitions, which just says that there be an intent to strike at and move the ball. Have I missed something?

That's a perceptive question and you've caught my memory out (not a difficult thing to do!). It's something I've learned but as you rightly say, not something that is written into the definition of a stroke and I can't at the moment think of the kind of situations that illustrate the principle.

I'll rephrase what I said as " in the direction of the green/hole" is misleading if taken literally (you might make a stroke to move your ball sideways or even backwards to get out of a difficult situation). The intention that makes a stroke, as I have come to understand it, should be to progress the playing of the hole as implied by Rule 1-1.

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes


In other words, if you hit a ball - any ball - for any other purpose (such as venting your anger) than playing from teeing ground to hole, it isn't a stroke. Consequently, hitting at and missing a ball to express your anger is not a stroke.

That's the best I can do at the moment. Rulefan might be able to rescue me from this floundering: I can't answer for his memory, but I am sure his note-keeping is far more efficient than mine.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That's a perceptive question and you've caught my memory out (not a difficult thing to do!). It's something I've learned but as you rightly say, not something that is written into the definition of a stroke and I can't at the moment think of the kind of situations that illustrate the principle.

I'll rephrase what I said as " in the direction of the green/hole" is misleading if taken literally (you might make a stroke to move your ball sideways or even backwards to get out of a difficult situation). The intention that makes a stroke, as I have come to understand it, should be to progress the playing of the hole as implied by Rule 1-1.

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes


In other words, if you hit a ball - any ball - for any other purpose (such as venting your anger) than playing from teeing ground to hole, it isn't a stroke. Consequently, hitting at and missing a ball to express your anger is not a stroke.

That's the best I can do at the moment. Rulefan might be able to rescue me from this floundering: I can't answer for his memory, but I am sure his note-keeping is far more efficient than mine.

I'd have thought that 'progressing the ball towards the hole' can include sideways or backwards movement of the ball if that is required to 'progress the ball towards the hole'. By definition every stroke we make is made with the intention of progressing the ball towards the hole as that is our objective and intent when we play a hole.

 

[Colin L]

I'd have thought that 'progressing the ball towards the hole' can include sideways or backwards movement of the ball if that is required to 'progress the ball towards the hole'. By definition every stroke we make is made with the intention of progressing the ball towards the hole as that is our objective and intent when we play a hole.

Yes, indeed. I did rewrite that bit above and hope it was a bit clearer:

I'll rephrase what I said as " in the direction of the green/hole" is misleading if taken literally (you might make a stroke to move your ball sideways or even backwards to get out of a difficult situation). The intention that makes a stroke, as I have come to understand it, should be to progress the playing of the hole as implied by Rule 1-1.

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes

 

[rulefan]

That's a perceptive question and you've caught my memory out (not a difficult thing to do!). It's something I've learned but as you rightly say, not something that is written into the definition of a stroke and I can't at the moment think of the kind of situations that illustrate the principle.

I'll rephrase what I said as " in the direction of the green/hole" is misleading if taken literally (you might make a stroke to move your ball sideways or even backwards to get out of a difficult situation). The intention that makes a stroke, as I have come to understand it, should be to progress the playing of the hole as implied by Rule 1-1.

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes


In other words, if you hit a ball - any ball - for any other purpose (such as venting your anger) than playing from teeing ground to hole, it isn't a stroke. Consequently, hitting at and missing a ball to express your anger is not a stroke.

That's the best I can do at the moment. Rulefan might be able to rescue me from this floundering: I can't answer for his memory, but I am sure his note-keeping is far more efficient than mine.

Colin
What is wrong with "A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball"

Forward means towards the ball
A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, ......"

 

[Colin L]

The definition is absolutely clear but do we not need something more to explain, for example, why a forward movement of a club with the intention of striking at and moving the ball in Decision 18-2/23 is not a stroke? Could it be that elusive memory of mine about a stroke having to be made with the intention of finally holing out?

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-18,d18-2-23

I acknowledge it is dangerous to put words in the mouth of the Rules but there seems something missing from the Definition to explain that Decision.

@Clive
I think that Decision could provide the answer to you original question. If hitting a ball at rest in anger with no intention of your action helping you complete the hole is not a stroke, would that not apply to hitting or trying to hit a moving ball in anger, again without a view to your action contributing to the completion of the hole?

 

[rulefan]

Colin

I don't see the decision relating to a forward movement. To me it is a backward movement.

 

[atticusfinch]

Could it be that elusive memory of mine about a stroke having to be made with the intention of finally holing out?

R.1-1 says exactly that.

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.

 

[cliveb]

@Clive
I think that Decision could provide the answer to you original question. If hitting a ball at rest in anger with no intention of your action helping you complete the hole is not a stroke, would that not apply to hitting or trying to hit a moving ball in anger, again without a view to your action contributing to the completion of the hole?

Thanks to everyone for their views on this. I never expected what I thought was a fairly straightforward question to have opened up such a can of worms!

It sems to me that the general consensus is that taking a frustrated swipe at a ball (whether moving or not) doesn't constitute a stroke, and so if that swipe happens to miss the ball, there is no penalty.

 

[Colin L]

Colin
I don't see the decision relating to a forward movement. To me it is a backward movement.

Is forward not towards the ball whether with the front or the back of your clubhead while backward is away from the ball as in backswing? If you holed a tap-in with the back of your putter, is that not a stroke?

 

[rulefan]

Is forward not towards the ball whether with the front or the back of your clubhead while backward is away from the ball as in backswing? If you holed a tap-in with the back of your putter, is that not a stroke?

Certainly, on the face of it, the movement is towards the ball but the decision clearly says it is not a stroke.

 

[Colin L]

Certainly, on the face of it, the movement is towards the ball but the decision clearly says it is not a stroke.

Exactly. There is movement of the club towards the ball, the player intends to hit it and move it, yet it is not a stroke. The only reason I can see for it's not being considered a stroke is that the player does not hit the ball with the intention of holing out in accordance with Rule 1.1

 

[rulefan]

Makes sense