Rolling back the pro game

[wjemather]

Okay, so as the season winds down, I have been thinking on this, also taking into account the plans to 'update' the Old Course to keep it relevant. To me it seems that it would be good to get some control on the pro game. The combination of distance and accuracy that players are getting from the newest generation of driver is making golf less interesting to me and many others. At the same time it appears that the ball roll back won't affect this very much, whilst being detrimental to amateur golfers. So I will put up a collection of measures for debate. These measures would first apply to the professional game but then after a phasing out period to all comps, professional and amateur.

- Golf club length, maximum of 44 inches
- Golf club loft minimum of 10 degrees
- Golf club head size maximum 360cc
- Max number of clubs 10
- Max loft 58 degrees

Although this looks quite radical, especially because it would phase out 460cc drivers, I don't think this would impact amateurs as much as many would think. The growing popularity of mini-drivers implies that many amateurs would acutally benefit from a higher lofted, shorter and smaller driver head.

Any thoughts?

The only measure necessary (and the only sensible one) is placing simple restrictions on the ball, and doing so in such a way that it is most effective at elite clubhead speeds. Unfortunately the 'rollback' we are getting does not do this, nor does it go nearly far enough in limiting distance.
Importantly, making the ball travel shorter doesn't (have to) make the game harder for amateurs - this is a fallacy being pushed by people with a vested interest in selling distance as the panacea (and people who have bought into the lie). Aside from the difference being unnoticeable to players who play cheap balls or foundlings and can't find the centre of the clubface on a regular basis, they can always just move up a tee and play a shorter course.

Restricting clubhead size would only make the ball go further off-line, making fairways harder to hit for everyone thereby benefitting the longest hitters even more, and making play even slower and more boring (bomb, gouge, wedge, putt). The same applies to any course setup suggestions that involve narrower fairways, longer rough, insanely fast greens, etc. - only the effect is worse (plus, the pros also don't want to play the US Open every week).
Restricting shaft length would achieve next to nothing - many pros already play shorter shafts (average ~44½" depending on reports).
Loft restrictions would have zero impact.
Reducing the number of clubs might may things a little more interesting occasionally but it wouldn't have any real effect.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

They are playing a shorter course because the ball doesn't go so far, so the 145 yards you mention will actually be 120 yards on the shorter course and the club is still a 7 iron.

The time saving is not from taking less shots but from not walking 1,000 yards.

Anyway, why am I getting involved in this endless round and round argument again?

I'm out.

I appreciate you not wanting to go round but i do feel i need to address the point of you saying 145 is actually 120yrd and that your manipulating the number to meet your argument which is fair enough, but 145 yards is still 145 yards and that would still be a 5 iron! or even your 120 yard 7 iron comment the average player is still going to be progressively worse as the shaft lengthens. So the point still stands that the control element disappears and ability to hit the target becomes less! Which adds shots and adds time regardless of the distance walked!

Seems like an odd response to make it fit but anyway as you said you don't wish to go round and I respect that .

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

Exhib A. The DP event in India recently. Bomb and gauge and you missed the cut, unless you found the fairway! Made for a super event.

Joke greens at Augusta? Not in the slightest. They mean you have to drive in the right place to set up an approach, that'll give any chance of getting close. Fairways miles wide and no rough. But you're not making a score from the wrong places. Unless you're a genius!

Make it a putting contest and you get a putting contest.

They still shot 20 under. It was dull to watch as they all did the same thing.

 

[simsini]

Okay, so as the season winds down, I have been thinking on this, also taking into account the plans to 'update' the Old Course to keep it relevant. To me it seems that it would be good to get some control on the pro game. The combination of distance and accuracy that players are getting from the newest generation of driver is making golf less interesting to me and many others. At the same time it appears that the ball roll back won't affect this very much, whilst being detrimental to amateur golfers. So I will put up a collection of measures for debate. These measures would first apply to the professional game but then after a phasing out period to all comps, professional and amateur.

- Golf club length, maximum of 44 inches
- Golf club loft minimum of 10 degrees
- Golf club head size maximum 360cc
- Max number of clubs 10
- Max loft 58 degrees

Although this looks quite radical, especially because it would phase out 460cc drivers, I don't think this would impact amateurs as much as many would think. The growing popularity of mini-drivers implies that many amateurs would acutally benefit from a higher lofted, shorter and smaller driver head.

Any thoughts?

Don't need to do anything like this, just play the pro game on harder courses.

 

[IanM]

They still shot 20 under. It was dull to watch as they all did the same thing.

Hey, in all the WHS Threads, you'd say 20 under par is level, for players plus 5 and better?

Interestingly, the last three Masters were all won with 11 and 12 under par.

No where near 20

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Simple question

Why do we need to do any sort of rolling back

Does it really matter if the scores are low in some events and the players can hit it a long way in same events

99.99% of the time the best golfer is still winning

 

[D-S]

Maybe the ball roll back is good news for the golf ball manufacturers, just imagine how many balls will become ‘redundant’ overnight.

 

[IanM]

Simple question

Why do we need to do any sort of rolling back

Does it really matter if the scores are low in some events and the players can hit it a long way in same events

99.99% of the time the best golfer is still winning

The one argument I can get behind is to stop the great cathedrals of game becoming obsolete. (Assuming it's already not too late!)

 

[Arthur Wedge]

The one argument I can get behind is to stop the great cathedrals of game becoming obsolete. (Assuming it's already not too late!)

They won’t be obsolete if people stop worrying about what score someone wins with

Links courses will always be at the mercy of the weather

 

[IanM]

They won’t be obsolete if people stop worrying about what score someone wins with

Links courses will always be at the mercy of the weather

True enough, but I was thinking about the Sunningdales etc. Even forgetting the score, if they are hitting short clubs off tees, it's not where we need to be.

I suppose no one ever said, Athletics times are too fast, we need to make them run uphill!!!

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

Maybe the ball roll back is good news for the golf ball manufacturers, just imagine how many balls will become ‘redundant’ overnight.

Look at it another way if that happens, how many club golfers will be in breach of the rules for years to come having already bought a load of balls and not wanting to simply bin them when they've spent their hard earned cash on them in the first place.

They won’t be obsolete if people stop worrying about what score someone wins with

Links courses will always be at the mercy of the weather

I completely agree with this, don't be hung up on the score and just enjoy watching the best player win. If people don't like the stye of play watch something else.

 

[Neilds]

Just knock 1 shot off every par

 

[Arthur Wedge]

True enough, but I was thinking about the Sunningdales etc. Even forgetting the score, if they are hitting short clubs off tees, it's not where we need to be.

I suppose no one ever said, Athletics times are too fast, we need to make them run uphill!!!

Sunningdales haven’t been used for many major events for years beyond the odd senior open

Most of the events held at at stadium type courses

 

[Imurg]

Just knock 1 shot off every par

Seriously, why not....most par 5s are a 4 1/2 for the Pros anyway
Make the Par something like 66 and Robert's your Father's Brother.....

 

[wjemather]

True enough, but I was thinking about the Sunningdales etc. Even forgetting the score, if they are hitting short clubs off tees, it's not where we need to be.

I suppose no one ever said, Athletics times are too fast, we need to make them run uphill!!!

If athletics had been administered like golf has been, stadiums would have been rebuilt to facilitate javelins flying 150 yards, and 100m times would be under 8 seconds.

 

[irip]

True enough, but I was thinking about the Sunningdales etc. Even forgetting the score, if they are hitting short clubs off tees, it's not where we need to be.

I suppose no one ever said, Athletics times are too fast, we need to make them run uphill!!!

I agree.
The old course at St Andrews is in my opinion going to get destroyed in the next open or 2 it holds.
It just isn’t long enough to challenge the modern day player.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

I agree.
The old course at St Andrews is in my opinion going to get destroyed in the next open or 2 it holds.
It just isn’t long enough to challenge the modern day player.

I know I'm in a huge minority with this opinion and will be hunted by the pack on here for it, but personally I don't see the fascination with playing TOC and holding the Open there in the current rotation.. Even when I look back at watching as a kid St Andrews as a course always underwhelmed me and I think as challenge for top players it struggles to be considered a top major venue, there are so many better and more challenging Links courses that maybe it's time to reduce how often TOC gets the Open. I understand its the home of golf etc but it genuinely doesn't excite me as an Open host course, maybe I need to actually go there to see what the hype is about but I do struggle with it.

 

[irip]

I know I'm in a huge minority with this opinion and will be hunted by the pack on here for it, but personally I don't see the fascination with playing TOC and holding the Open there in the current rotation.. Even when I look back at watching as a kid St Andrews as a course always underwhelmed me and I think as challenge for top players it struggles to be considered a top major venue, there are so many better and more challenging Links courses that maybe it's time to reduce how often TOC gets the Open. I understand its the home of golf etc but it genuinely doesn't excite me as an Open host course, maybe I need to actually go there to see what the hype is about but I do struggle with it.

I pretty much agree.
I have never played it and never had the desire too.
I was only putting that because it is the home of golf and thought it a good benchmark.
You are a heathen though

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

I pretty much agree.
I have never played it and never had the desire too.
I was only putting that because it is the home of golf and thought it a good benchmark.
You are a heathen though

Hard to disagree with the truth, in fact i'll take the compliment

I'm also in shock someone agreed usually I get all sorts of golfing traditionalist giving me pelters for having the audacity to say I think the TOC is just a bit "meh"

 

[Orikoru]

Hard to disagree with the truth, in fact i'll take the compliment

I'm also in shock someone agreed usually I get all sorts of golfing traditionalist giving me pelters for having the audacity to say I think the TOC is just a bit "meh"

I've heard quite a few people say the 1st and 17th & 18th are iconic but the rest of it is dull.