Roll Up Group Handicaps

[Lord Tyrion]

Though surely the rollup will simply work out stableford or net score - they won’t adjust the players gross and that’s what would be input for WHS.

I think there are two separate issues at play here, and potentially some confusion. Issues 1, play to the rules, and put in your card according to WHS. This is being done in your roll ups, on at least one occasion per month. All good, and as per your post.

The problem, according to EG, is the organiser then works their magic and manipulates the scores further by taking into account the roll up h/c. This is the point under discussion and is the problematic part.

My question to D-S, which I don't expect him to be able to answer so it was more about floating it, is are people able to continue to play in the roll up if they don't want the magic handicap to kick in and the roll up h/c to work? You don't want your h/c removed but the roll up insists on their h/c system. The roll up either has to full comply or those taking part will only be those who accept the withdrawl of official h/c. There is no half way house. (again, the likelihood of this happening does not sound great but it is what they have suggested to D-S, quite emphatically)

 

[rudebhoy]

There are 3 guys in my roll up who have improved markedly since October. Their unofficial roll up handicaps have been cut by 4 or 5 shots over the winter. They will get those shots back on WHS when the season proper starts, they can't wait!

 

[Orikoru]

The original point is kinda lost as the thread developed so we're now seeing posts about the Pros mentality in a practice round!

They are saying:

‘when ppl host & run regular informal comps at your club tell them they need to use the WHS handicap. Tell them to stop using 2nd (& 3rd) handicaps derived & maintained by some arbitrary method
And if the organiser of these informal comps are concerned about repeat winners then by submitting eligible scores from these comps into WHS the winners/losers official handicap will change up/down to reflect reality’

This doesn't affect any other golf rounds, be it mates, practice, 4-ball with a side bet, larger groups using the whs CH, unsupported formats etc etc

I'm still unsure whether I agree with it being mandated in this way but there's no point making it into something its not just to object to it

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Homer stopped checking in as he got his answer by about page 3.

 

[RichA]

No idea, as I say, I don’t know anywhere where ‘push has come to shove’.
I personally think no handicaps will get withdrawn as players will either play by the rules, carry on as normal but under the radar and in most cases the HC and/or club will put this in the ‘too difficult’ box. Not forgetting that a fair proportion of Handicap Committees and clubs won’t even want to learn or act on any of these new moves as they lack time or diligence or knowledge or the will to do anything about it.

Yep. It's a pity that EG have chosen to give voluntary local committee members a hospital pass.
It's the kind of thing that an inexperienced new middle manager does in a workplace because they feel they need to be seen to be managing.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

There are 3 guys in my roll up who have improved markedly since October. Their unofficial roll up handicaps have been cut by 4 or 5 shots over the winter. They will get those shots back on WHS when the season proper starts, they can't wait!

Is the course noticeably shorter? One of my pp is knocking in 36-40 points quite regularly at the moment, he is off 24. He is second place in our winter league (h/c are not moving at all during this period, not even a winter h/c). The tees are moved well forward though and that is helping him massively. Come April the tees will go back and he will be in the 30-34 territory, at best. The shorter length is a huge leveller at some courses.

 

[RichA]

I think there are two separate issues at play here, and potentially some confusion. Issues 1, play to the rules, and put in your card according to WHS. This is being done in your roll ups, on at least one occasion per month. All good, and as per your post.

The problem, according to EG, is the organiser then works their magic and manipulates the scores further by taking into account the roll up h/c. This is the point under discussion and is the problematic part.

My question to D-S, which I don't expect him to be able to answer so it was more about floating it, is are people able to continue to play in the roll up if they don't want the magic handicap to kick in and the roll up h/c to work? You don't want your h/c removed but the roll up insists on their h/c system. The roll up either has to full comply or those taking part will only be those who accept the withdrawl of official h/c. There is no half way house. (again, the likelihood of this happening does not sound great but it is what they have suggested to D-S, quite emphatically)

Surely, as was suggested early on, if the adjustments are made purely on the basis of competition results rather than adjusting playing handicaps prior to the round then there is no failure in compliance.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Surely, as was suggested early on, if the adjustments are made purely on the basis of competition results rather than adjusting playing handicaps prior to the round then there is no failure in compliance.

No idea, I'm not the one at EG making it up . That's a technicality for EG to think about.

You would also need the roll ups to work it that way, not by the current method, I think that is how most do it it seems, of adjusting h/c.

 

[D-S]

I think there are two separate issues at play here, and potentially some confusion. Issues 1, play to the rules, and put in your card according to WHS. This is being done in your roll ups, on at least one occasion per month. All good, and as per your post.

The problem, according to EG, is the organiser then works their magic and manipulates the scores further by taking into account the roll up h/c. This is the point under discussion and is the problematic part.

My question to D-S, which I don't expect him to be able to answer so it was more about floating it, is are people able to continue to play in the roll up if they don't want the magic handicap to kick in and the roll up h/c to work? You don't want your h/c removed but the roll up insists on their h/c system. The roll up either has to full comply or those taking part will only be those who accept the withdrawl of official h/c. There is no half way house. (again, the likelihood of this happening does not sound great but it is what they have suggested to D-S, quite emphatically)

I think the nuances of who, how and when people are sanctioned are not things that EG have considered. They have taken a ‘helicopter view’ and uttered a proclamation that they are seemingly doubling down on.
So you are 100% right in that I am unable to answer your question.

 

[rudebhoy]

Is the course noticeably shorter? One of my pp is knocking in 36-40 points quite regularly at the moment, he is off 24. He is second place in our winter league (h/c are not moving at all during this period, not even a winter h/c). The tees are moved well forward though and that is helping him massively. Come April the tees will go back and he will be in the 30-34 territory, at best. The shorter length is a huge leveller at some courses.

It is shorter, and they aren't the longest hitters, but they are also playing better in terms of technique. There are plenty others in the same handicap bracket (20-30ish) who haven't shown an improvement in scores.

Our course is not long, the principal defences are lots of trees and smallish greens.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

It is shorter, and they aren't the longest hitters, but they are also playing better in terms of technique. There are plenty others in the same handicap bracket (20-30ish) who haven't shown an improvement in scores.

Our course is not long, the principal defences are lots of trees and smallish greens.

It's definitely less of an issue at your place than mine although being closer does help to some degree still. Length is the primary defence at my place, your course is designed far more cleverly than that. That Braid fella knew a thing or two

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think there are two separate issues at play here, and potentially some confusion. Issues 1, play to the rules, and put in your card according to WHS. This is being done in your roll ups, on at least one occasion per month. All good, and as per your post.

The problem, according to EG, is the organiser then works their magic and manipulates the scores further by taking into account the roll up h/c. This is the point under discussion and is the problematic part.

My question to D-S, which I don't expect him to be able to answer so it was more about floating it, is are people able to continue to play in the roll up if they don't want the magic handicap to kick in and the roll up h/c to work? You don't want your h/c removed but the roll up insists on their h/c system. The roll up either has to full comply or those taking part will only be those who accept the withdrawl of official h/c. There is no half way house. (again, the likelihood of this happening does not sound great but it is what they have suggested to D-S, quite emphatically)

Just to (hopefully) address your point 1)..If a player in the rollup wishes to submit a card for handicap he will often complete two cards - one for the rollup with his rollup handicap; and a second for WHS with his WHS handicap. During the round he will always putt out (including when his rollup partners have given him a putt) and fully comply with the RoG. Alternatively he will record his rollup score (with R/U HC) on a card and his card for WHS (wit WHS Club HC) by app. If his rollup and WHS score for any hole is different e.g. he misses a putt that his rollup partners have given him, then the different scores are recorded accordingly.

 

[rulie]

Do McIlroy and Lowry approach their rounds with the same intent when they are out together for a practice round together in Jupiter as when they are playing a competition round at the Masters ?

Maybe, maybe not. But if they were keeping a handicap, they might want to post their scores provided they played by the Rules of golf and handicapping.
Not sure that I understand the point of your scenario?

 

[AussieKB]

No idea, as the ‘they’ you refer to is Golf Australia and this thread has been about England Golf’s re enforcing their position.
Ironically if we wanted to know on here what happens elsewhere in the world, we would be looking to you for what happens down under.

I thought it was WHS?

Last year I played in the final (invite) of the Golf Club Secretaries at Saunton Sands, and during qualifying and the Final the scores are not entered into WHS, I wonder if England Golf know that ?

Each Tournament will be an 18 hole Stableford with 90% handicap allowance of your advised WHS handicap. The results will be determined under the CONGU 2008 guidelines Appendix O for Mixed Golf. There will be a card play-off for any scores that tie, based on the last nine holes on each scorecard, including events that have two tee or shotgun starts. Play will usually be in three balls.

 

[Junior]

Exactly that

People can regurgitate what EG consider etc

But if a bunch of guys want to play social golf for a £1 or £2 or £5 and they use their own HC system for cuts etc then there is very little that a club can do about it

Also when I look at the three swindles I play in

Most of the HCs are close to your club

Some who are on Rich veins of form get themselves big cuts etc and ones playing shocking get shots back and it’s systems put in place that look like they are more balanced in terms of who picks up the money etc

We also find that people also make their own choice about putting a card in. The ones that are playing well seem to do it

I agree with AW.

Winter Roll ups / Swindles in particular are often played on a shorter course and people give gimmes to speed up play etc. Handicaps are the cut for winter for the winners and second .

The same applies in Summer where one group I occasionally play with use gimmes and also also have another rule where if you hit one oob you can play from where the ball crossed for a 2 shot penalty as opposed to go back to the tee. Yes, I know a provisional should be played but on some occasions you don’t thinking it’s ok, but you get a nasty surprise. All just to keep things moving.

 

[wjemather]

Last year I played in the final (invite) of the Golf Club Secretaries at Saunton Sands, and during qualifying and the Final the scores are not entered into WHS, I wonder if England Golf know that ?

Each Tournament will be an 18 hole Stableford with 90% handicap allowance of your advised WHS handicap. The results will be determined under the CONGU 2008 guidelines Appendix O for Mixed Golf. There will be a card play-off for any scores that tie, based on the last nine holes on each scorecard, including events that have two tee or shotgun starts. Play will usually be in three balls.

"The Golf Club Secretary" is not affiliated to EG; nor is it an EG approved tournament organisation.
As such, any competitions they run are outside EG jurisdictional control, and it is the players' responsibility to return any acceptable scores back to their home club.

 

[AussieKB]

So Golf Secretary don't give a toss about WHS but there members must.....sounds great

 

[Slab]

I agree with AW.

Winter Roll ups / Swindles in particular are often played on a shorter course and people give gimmes to speed up play etc. Handicaps are the cut for winter for the winners and second .

The same applies in Summer where one group I occasionally play with use gimmes and also also have another rule where if you hit one oob you can play from where the ball crossed for a 2 shot penalty as opposed to go back to the tee. Yes, I know a provisional should be played but on some occasions you don’t thinking it’s ok, but you get a nasty surprise. All just to keep things moving.

How generous are your gimmies!

 

[wjemather]

So Golf Secretary don't give a toss about WHS but there members must.....sounds great

The Golf Club Secretary is a newsletter for golf club secretaries and managers. It has subscribers not members.

 

[AussieKB]

The Golf Club Secretary is a newsletter for golf club secretaries and managers. It has subscribers not members.

But the Golf Secretaries play in a yearly event, thought they would care about the Handicap System....
but obviously dont.....better ask your Sec/GM if they play in it and what they think.

Then notify England Golf that they don't give a toss for WHS.

 

[2blue]

There are 3 guys in my roll up who have improved markedly since October. Their unofficial roll up handicaps have been cut by 4 or 5 shots over the winter. They will get those shots back on WHS when the season proper starts, they can't wait!

So is your course not set up for acceptable scores?