Roll Up Group Handicaps

[Dunesman]

Many of these replies smell a lot like excuses for protecting one’s handicap!

Or maintaining the integrity, honesty, and accuracy of ones handicap, by not submitting cards.

 

[Backache]

Many of these replies smell a lot like excuses for protecting one’s handicap!

Absolute stuff and nonsense, the majority just want to play golf at times in their own way which expedites a speedy social experience.
The WHS provides so many opportunities for fiddling your HCap , this idea just interferes with people's enjoyment.

 

[Backache]

I note that WHS said "protecting one's handicap". "Protecting" can be to keep it from going down or going up - neither is acceptable. More (honest) scores result in a more correct/current HI, and the vast majority of golfers are, imo, honest.

The vast majority are honest and this pronouncement interferes with their social enjoyment.
It does very little to address manipulation.
If you want to address it restrict how many GP rounds can be put in, not enforcing conformity on social golf.
But this idea goes against the holy mantra that GP rounds are not a problem it's every one else that is the problem and they must be told what to do.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Do McIlroy and Lowry approach their rounds with the same intent when they are out together for a practice round together in Jupiter as when they are playing a competition round at the Masters ?

They don't have a handicap so wouldn't come under the jurisdiction.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I would really like to think it wouldn’t get to that and countrywide there are very, very few withdrawn handicaps. Having just checked there are currently no players in my County with a withdrawn handicap.
So with no precedent to go on, I would just assume if push really came to shove, it would just be the non compliant members who would face sanctions not the other players nor the club if they had done everything they could.

An interesting point coming out here, and I appreciate that you are the Messenger not the rule maker. I wonder what happens to people who play in the roll up, hand in a card but the roll up organisers continue to adapt handicaps accordingly. The player isn't asking for this, it's what happens within the group. Does their handicap get withdrawn?

Is the only way for the player to avoid this for them to stop playing in the roll up?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

An interesting point coming out here, and I appreciate that you are the Messenger not the rule maker. I wonder what happens to people who play in the roll up, hand in a card but the roll up organisers continue to adapt handicaps accordingly. The player isn't asking for this, it's what happens within the group. Does their handicap get withdrawn?

Is the only way for the player to avoid this for them to stop playing in the roll up?

Any roll up round I know the handicap adjustment my rollup winnings afford me - it is up to me whether or not I apply it - it is not applied by the organiser.

 

[Slab]

The original point is kinda lost as the thread developed so we're now seeing posts about the Pros mentality in a practice round!

They are saying:

‘when ppl host & run regular informal comps at your club tell them they need to use the WHS handicap. Tell them to stop using 2nd (& 3rd) handicaps derived & maintained by some arbitrary method
And if the organiser of these informal comps are concerned about repeat winners then by submitting eligible scores from these comps into WHS the winners/losers official handicap will change up/down to reflect reality’

This doesn't affect any other golf rounds, be it mates, practice, 4-ball with a side bet, larger groups using the whs CH, unsupported formats etc etc

I'm still unsure whether I agree with it being mandated in this way but there's no point making it into something its not just to object to it

 

[D-S]

I believe scores are labelled as competition or general play behind the scenes.
If I haven't missed it, for the above scenario (roll up treated as competition) would the scores be competition or general play?

Or do we end up with a 3rd category?

If the club sets up the ‘roll up/ swindles’ regular competition in their software, then it would appear as a competition score, if scores are entered individually by the member signing in to their ISV or EG App then it would be a GP score.
Oddly this choice might end up being a financial one as I would guess quite a few clubs, in equity, would want to take a % of the pot if they set it up.

 

[D-S]

One social group I play with have a rule that you are allowed one club preferred lie anywhere on the course except bunkers, we are organised and play weekly, surely they don't expect us to put cards in ?

No idea, as the ‘they’ you refer to is Golf Australia and this thread has been about England Golf’s re enforcing their position.
Ironically if we wanted to know on here what happens elsewhere in the world, we would be looking to you for what happens down under.

 

[Dunesman]

Any roll up round I know the handicap adjustment my rollup winnings afford me - it is up to me whether or not I apply it - it is not applied by the organiser.

Same with us. You cannot decide not to play with the modified handicap. If you play, it is adjusted by those running it.

 

[Dunesman]

They don't have a handicap so wouldn't come under the jurisdiction.

I am well aware of that. I am giving an example. Even at the top of the tree, golfers do not treat rvery round they play with the same attention. Some may. But for sure, not all do.

 

[D-S]

Any roll up round I know the handicap adjustment my rollup winnings afford me - it is up to me whether or not I apply it - it is not applied by the organiser.

I’m not sure if I understand this.
There is a roll up group that used to play with who play team formats and run their own handicap system which is pretty draconian. Even though I don’t play with them these days as the timing is inconvenient, if I turned up today then despite being off 6 on WHS, I would have to play off my last roll up handicap in their group which I think is 2 - I have zero choice in the matter if I put my money in.
They, by the way, have been informed of EG’s hardened stance, the debate/outcome will be ‘interesting’. As they only play team formats cards can’t be submitted from their ‘comps’ and almost all play 20+ ‘qualifying’ comps a year.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Any roll up round I know the handicap adjustment my rollup winnings afford me - it is up to me whether or not I apply it - it is not applied by the organiser.

Are you saying that if you win and the organiser cuts you by 2 shots, you can refuse that 2 shot cut the following week?

 

[D-S]

An interesting point coming out here, and I appreciate that you are the Messenger not the rule maker. I wonder what happens to people who play in the roll up, hand in a card but the roll up organisers continue to adapt handicaps accordingly. The player isn't asking for this, it's what happens within the group. Does their handicap get withdrawn?

Is the only way for the player to avoid this for them to stop playing in the roll up?

No idea, as I say, I don’t know anywhere where ‘push has come to shove’.
I personally think no handicaps will get withdrawn as players will either play by the rules, carry on as normal but under the radar and in most cases the HC and/or club will put this in the ‘too difficult’ box. Not forgetting that a fair proportion of Handicap Committees and clubs won’t even want to learn or act on any of these new moves as they lack time or diligence or knowledge or the will to do anything about it.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

No idea, as I say, I don’t know anywhere where ‘push has come to shove’.
I personally think no handicaps will get withdrawn as players will either play by the rules, carry on as normal but under the radar and in most cases the HC and/or club will put this in the ‘too difficult’ box. Not forgetting that a fair proportion of Handicap Committees and clubs won’t even want to learn or act on any of these new moves as they lack time or diligence or knowledge or the will to do anything about it.

I tend to agree. This is going to be one of those hypothetical rulings that get ignored, quite rightly in all honesty. There is no need for EG to get involved in this, they are trying to strong arm a fix to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Same with us. You cannot decide not to play with the modified handicap. If you play, it is adjusted by those running it.

I actually got it wrong way round. I know the rollup handicap adjustment - though I can choose to not apply it when I hand in my card…the organiser will then apply it. If I ask him not to do so then I will be playing off the ‘wrong’ handicap and so in the normal run of things I’d be DQd. But by doing so I’m excluding myself from the rollup comp so becomes rather pointless in context of the rollup. As some might say…a right boogers moodle.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I’m not sure if I understand this.
There is a roll up group that used to play with who play team formats and run their own handicap system which is pretty draconian. Even though I don’t play with them these days as the timing is inconvenient, if I turned up today then despite being off 6 on WHS, I would have to play off my last roll up handicap in their group which I think is 2 - I have zero choice in the matter if I put my money in.
They, by the way, have been informed of EG’s hardened stance, the debate/outcome will be ‘interesting’. As they only play team formats cards can’t be submitted from their ‘comps’ and almost all play 20+ ‘qualifying’ comps a year.

You are right to be confused by my post..I got muddled myself…

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

An interesting point coming out here, and I appreciate that you are the Messenger not the rule maker. I wonder what happens to people who play in the roll up, hand in a card but the roll up organisers continue to adapt handicaps accordingly. The player isn't asking for this, it's what happens within the group. Does their handicap get withdrawn?

Is the only way for the player to avoid this for them to stop playing in the roll up?

Though surely the rollup will simply work out a player’s stableford or net score - they won’t adjust the players gross and that’s what a player would input for WHS. He’s compliant. Think I’m going to start doing it…some who play in the rollup already do this.

And TBH…the main reason I’m not putting cards in at the moment is that I’m not playing well and I can see my HI just heading skywards…and that is wrong-headed of me.

 

[Backache]

The original point is kinda lost as the thread developed so we're now seeing posts about the Pros mentality in a practice round!

They are saying:

‘when ppl host & run regular informal comps at your club tell them they need to use the WHS handicap. Tell them to stop using 2nd (& 3rd) handicaps derived & maintained by some arbitrary method
And if the organiser of these informal comps are concerned about repeat winners then by submitting eligible scores from these comps into WHS the winners/losers official handicap will change up/down to reflect reality’

This doesn't affect any other golf rounds, be it mates, practice, 4-ball with a side bet, larger groups using the whs CH, unsupported formats etc etc

I'm still unsure whether I agree with it being mandated in this way but there's no point making it into something its not just to object to it

No but it does affect roll ups.One roll up I know uses their own handicaps which progress as the season goes on to make it difficult for people to win that often. Its just social. They cannot actually formally use WHS handicaps over the course they play because the tees of the day are unmeasured.

If the authorities are concerned that people are going around using their handicaps to manipulate their WHS but keeping other scores quiet ( and many roll ups use a format unsuitable for H/capping) they should require roll up groups to provide a list of winners and runners up over the course of the year and use the info at handicap review time rather than manipulating how social golf is played.If they required them to provide information on Hcaps used it would give the hcap commitee more information for review and be easier to stop manipulation .

 

[Backache]

No idea, as I say, I don’t know anywhere where ‘push has come to shove’.
I personally think no handicaps will get withdrawn as players will either play by the rules, carry on as normal but under the radar and in most cases the HC and/or club will put this in the ‘too difficult’ box. Not forgetting that a fair proportion of Handicap Committees and clubs won’t even want to learn or act on any of these new moves as they lack time or diligence or knowledge or the will to do anything about it.

I agree that that is generally what will happen unfortunately some clubs will slavishly enforce it to the detriment of some members.