Roll Up Group Handicaps

[AdrianN]

Yep. I don't play roll ups or swindles. I play the occasional comp but don't really care.
Like many, I play golf with friends for recreation. I can do that without membership of England Golf or an official handicap.
Official comp participation at my place is usually about 60 entrants out of a membership of 500.
If they choose to get officious about it I'm sure there are thousands of golfers who only play friendly golf and will happily give up their EG/WHS handicaps. Having one isn't mandatory to play golf or be a member of a club. I know you need a WHS HI to play at some courses, but the majority of courses don't require it and the majority of golfers probably aren't travelling around playing opens.
It's a potential own goal for the sake of clamping down on people doing their own thing.

Hi Rich
EG Affiliation Fees are payable whether or not you have a WHS Handicap - liability arises when a subscription is paid for access to the course (whether or not that person submits cards and obtains an EG / WHS Handicap.
Kindest regards
Adrian

 

[AdrianN]

Do those 150 without handicaps pay affiliation fees to the County and to EG?

Yes they do - or to put it slightly differently the Club has to pay the Affiliation Fees for all Members who have access to the course. A

 

[AdrianN]

So when someone is having a social round you would expect them to follow every single rule ?

It’s winter and there are mud balls and group agree for it to be ok for people to lift and clean the ball ?

What’s the issue with that

There is a Model Local Rule that can be adopted to cover Lift, Clean and Replace in the Rough (non closely mown parts of the General Area) and Scores remain compliant with that Rule in place. A

 

[Dunesman]

The Four Home Unions have already chosen WHS as their preferred handicap system and are invested in it - so all of a sudden you want them to tear this up, dismantle the existing structure, invent a new one, develop the software and administer it?

If this is your plan, for your own peace of mind, please don't get your hopes up.

No. But they should learn from their mistake, that half baked multiple systems around the world, trying to shoe-horn different golfing worlds into one - that I am sure seemed fine in the laboratory conditions distant from the real clubs of England - hasnt worked.

Thats partly why they just point to the rules all the time - those are the rules so thats what you must do.

But they know people arent observing them, and will not in any widespread way. Nor will EG, SG, GI, or any club cancel a handicap or in any way sanction players, nor will they disassociate any club. They are powerless to have a world that doesnt want to, conform to their uniform in name only, system. Play your rollup with your own handicap modifications, submit cards or dont, play gimmes or dont, limit GP cards to protect 'proper' competitions if your wish. Nobody is going to trouble you.
This hollowness of their power to bend golfers to their vision, combined with the really fundamental part that must trouble them deeply - that US and UK handicaps still are not comparable without a conversion factor - sum to the futility and failure of the WHS project.

 

[D-S]

BIB describes the roll up I play in precisely…soooo…it seems to me we might find club really pushing for our scores to be submitted for WHS. I am not clear whether or not EG are telling clubs that this sort of round MUST be submitted for WHS handicap purposes. If they are the club does not comply with that request and let the roll up continue ‘as is’ then what sanctions are the club exposing themselves to be at risk from.

Apologies if this has been answered already - but there has been lots of discussion around why it might be wrong-headed in the context of social golf, and the truth is that the club is powerless to accede to members wishes and complaints if EG mandate it, and you’ve described my roll up exactly.

If the club comes to us with the need to change I want to be informed to help us understand that it’s not the club but EG.

They are saying that scores from the type of roll up you describe must be submitted.

There is no set list of sanctions or even a laid out procedure, but EG will be saying (not me) that the club by allowing this, is in breach of the Rules of Handicapping and should do all that they can, as in any other matters that breaches the Rules of Handicapping (e.g. not playing over a measured course or not applying mandatory allowances) , to rectify the situation.
They should therefore do their best by education and persuasion to get things in line and (as I was told) if the situation persists and there is no prospect of the rules being followed, withdraw the handicaps of those that refuse to abide by the Rules of Handicapping.
Theoretically, if a club, for a long period of time and after education, persuasion etc.etc. continued to breach the Rules of Handicapping then they could be liable to disaffiliation, but in reality it would never come to that.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

There is a Model Local Rule that can be adopted to cover Lift, Clean and Replace in the Rough (non closely mown parts of the General Area) and Scores remain compliant with that Rule in place. A

There is - but we don’t have that in place in the golf club

 

[D-S]

No. But they should learn from their mistake, that half baked multiple systems around the world, trying to shoe-horn different golfing worlds into one - that I am sure seemed fine in the laboratory conditions distant from the real clubs of England - hasnt worked.

Thats partly why they just point to the rules all the time - those are the rules so thats what you must do.

But they know people arent observing them, and will not in any widespread way. Nor will EG, SG, GI, or any club cancel a handicap or in any way sanction players, nor will they disassociate any club. They are powerless to have a world that doesnt want to, conform to their uniform in name only, system. Play your rollup with your own handicap modifications, submit cards or dont, play gimmes or dont, limit GP cards to protect 'proper' competitions if your wish. Nobody is going to trouble you.
This hollowness of their power to bend golfers to their vision, combined with the really fundamental part that must trouble them deeply - that US and UK handicaps still are not comparable without a conversion factor - sum to the futility and failure of the WHS project.

I think we are all aware of your views but trying to get the Home Unions to reverse their decisions of the past 10 years or so is a waste of your time and even if you really were dead set on doing so, posting a series of rants on a golf forum is not going to get you anywhere nearer this goal . So, I repeat, if this is your plan, don’t get your hopes up.

 

[Dunesman]

I think we are all aware of your views but trying to get the Home Unions to reverse their decisions of the past 10 years or so is a waste of your time and even if you really were dead set on doing so, posting a series of rants on a golf forum is not going to get you anywhere nearer this goal . So, I repeat, if this is your plan, don’t get your hopes up.

Again, no. I am not trying to do anything, and have no plan. I am just a footsoldier pawn in the world of golf.
And I am sure they will never climb down and reverse WHS. My point you took a little too literally, still stands though.

 

[RichA]

Hi Rich
EG Affiliation Fees are payable whether or not you have a WHS Handicap - liability arises when a subscription is paid for access to the course (whether or not that person submits cards and obtains an EG / WHS Handicap.
Kindest regards
Adrian

Yes I know. £11 per year out of my membership fee doesn't worry me.
None of this does. Just saying that I don't care whether I'm an EG member with a WHS handicap or not. I managed to play golf up to the age of 50 without it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Maybe an obvious question, but why wouldn't you want your score submitted for handicap purposes?

I’m not one of those vehemently opposed to it - quite a few (many) are opposed - some vehemently. The club tried previously (and got a load of flack) but compromised…I’m thinking that the club may come back with the EG mandate and not be able, or in any position, to compromise. Members of the roll up against the change are against it for the same reasons others have outlined on this thread - one being no gimmes will slow things down and make it all much more serious. They are not so much against submitting cards…rather they are against the consequential changes to our roll up that will be required of us playing our roll up rounds.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

They are saying that scores from the type of roll up you describe must be submitted.

There is no set list of sanctions or even a laid out procedure, but EG will be saying (not me) that the club by allowing this, is in breach of the Rules of Handicapping and should do all that they can, as in any other matters that breaches the Rules of Handicapping (e.g. not playing over a measured course or not applying mandatory allowances) , to rectify the situation.
They should therefore do their best by education and persuasion to get things in line and (as I was told) if the situation persists and there is no prospect of the rules being followed, withdraw the handicaps of those that refuse to abide by the Rules of Handicapping.
Theoretically, if a club, for a long period of time and after education, persuasion etc.etc. continued to breach the Rules of Handicapping then they could be liable to disaffiliation, but in reality it would never come to that.

Ok - that’s clear.

So if my roll up persisted with organising and playing ‘as is’ despite exhortations and pressure from the club to change…the club will be obliged (required?) to withdraw the h/caps of all those playing in it and not submitting a card.

Clearly some of us playing in it could comply and submit a card…I’m assuming we’d be ok and not at risk unless the rollup itself is deemed ‘out of order’ and the sanction would be applied to all who play in it regardless - but that feels draconian and unnecessary.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

Many of these replies smell a lot like excuses for protecting one’s handicap!

 

[D-S]

Ok - that’s clear.

So if my roll up persisted with organising and playing ‘as is’ despite exhortations and pressure from the club to change…the club may (will?) feel it is obliged to withdraw the h/caps of all those playing in it and not submitting a card.

Clearly some of us playing in it could comply and submit a card…I’m assuming we’d be ok and not at risk unless the rollup itself is deemed ‘out of order’ and the sanction would be applied to all who play in it regardless.

I would really like to think it wouldn’t get to that and countrywide there are very, very few withdrawn handicaps. Having just checked there are currently no players in my County with a withdrawn handicap.
So with no precedent to go on, I would just assume if push really came to shove, it would just be the non compliant members who would face sanctions not the other players nor the club if they had done everything they could.

 

[2blue]

Many of these replies smell a lot like excuses for protecting one’s handicap!

Getting to be a stink rather than just a smell..... we're parkland on clay, in the N of England & using all the tools provided by EG have been able, all winter, to enable Q conditions for our members. We have no roll-ups but 3 Q Comps a week. Yes... there's quite a stink coming from those 'old boy Clubs'.... wakey, wakey!!!

 

[Dunesman]

Many of these replies smell a lot like excuses for protecting one’s handicap!

Is it not quite the opposite ? More GP cards, more cards, and you handicap will drop. Your mileage may vary, but by about 3 shots.

 

[BubbaP]

For the second time in this thread, it is not me saying this, it is England Golf. I am just the messenger. So it is not up to me how a club is expected to enforce it.

However just a thought, perhaps advising members by their preferred contact medium of England Golf’s wishes might be a good way to start. Personally I find education is always the best first step, compulsion should only be a last resort.

There are quite clear signs as to whether something is an organised roll-up/swindle playing a competition, they include (but dont necessarily have to fulfil every criteria) a regular reserved tee slot or playing time, perhaps a handicap system, an organiser present on the day, money being put into a pot, cards being handed in, prizes being awarded etc. etc. - if you want it more simply almost everything you would expect of a ‘normal’ competition,

I believe scores are labelled as competition or general play behind the scenes.
If I haven't missed it, for the above scenario (roll up treated as competition) would the scores be competition or general play?

Or do we end up with a 3rd category?

 

[AussieKB]

One social group I play with have a rule that you are allowed one club preferred lie anywhere on the course except bunkers, we are organised and play weekly, surely they don't expect us to put cards in ?

 

[rulie]

Is it not quite the opposite ? More GP cards, more cards, and you handicap will drop. Your mileage may vary, but by about 3 shots.

I note that WHS said "protecting one's handicap". "Protecting" can be to keep it from going down or going up - neither is acceptable. More (honest) scores result in a more correct/current HI, and the vast majority of golfers are, imo, honest.

 

[Dunesman]

What intrigues me is as follows:

There are a couple of swindles at my club each week. The weekend one is certainly organised between mates, the weekday one has many regular faces, but open to anyone to turn up and play. There are about 20-40 players in the field in general. Clearly, all those people that play (and it could be pushing 100 people if you count those that just turn up every now and then) are happy to submit their scores, just like they would in a club run competition.

You cannot conclude all these people are happy about submitting their scores, let alone clearly happy, just because they do it.
If you surveyed the 100 hundred and asked them would they prefer to submit or not submit cards in the swindle, and the one hundred said they would prefer to submit it, or were as happy to submit cards as not, then you could draw the conclusion that you propose.

I submit cards for competition rounds to maintain a WHS handicap. That doesnt mean I am happy with WHS.

 

[Dunesman]

I note that WHS said "protecting one's handicap". "Protecting" can be to keep it from going down or going up - neither is acceptable. More (honest) scores result in a more correct/current HI, and the vast majority of golfers are, imo, honest.

Do McIlroy and Lowry approach their rounds with the same intent when they are out together for a practice round together in Jupiter as when they are playing a competition round at the Masters ?