Relief from hole caused by staked tree

rulie

Head Pro
Joined
Sep 2, 2015
Messages
1,081
I get that. But if I choose to hit the ball in, what might appear to others to be, a curious direction - who is to say that it is an unreasonable direction. I might simple not fancy what I have to do playing in any of the other direction, or what I might have left if I did so. I should be able to do that without explaining to another player why. But if your decision with the pro was nothing to do with the nature of the stance he was taking, rather it was to do with the fact that he was choosing to take a stance for a shot that you deemed unreasonable then how did you decide that the shot he said he might choose to play was unreasonable.

I might be up against a staked tree with a clear swing to hit the ball in a direction that many if not most might choose - but I might want to play in a direction in which the staked tree impeded my swing. For reasons of my own. I explain to ref/other player why I might wish to do so and I get relief. We are now in a completely new scenario and what I now choose to do is up to me, and nothing to do with what I have just done.

I note that I am only playing devils advocate on this as I am sure I have in the past taken the sort of relief I am thinking of - and I don’t want to get it wrong or to be perceived to be a ‘fly boy’.
In my situation with the pro, I used my viewing of the situation, my Rules knowledge and my experience as a player to consider his planned stroke unreasonable.
In your situation, if another player considers your efforts to gain relief unreasonable, he should bring it to the attention of the Committee in charge before scorecards are returned. The Committee will then assess the situation and make a decision regarding Rules 16.1a(2) and (3). Those Rules exist to protect the entire field of players.
 
Thread starter #25

hlssgc

New member
Joined
Oct 11, 2021
Messages
2
Thanks for the replies gents, very helpful, just to confirm the tree in question was a small fir tree with very bushy branches with the ball lying in a hole next to the trunk, we saw the ball go under and had to physically move branches to get to find the ball. There is no way any stroke would have been possible, so I think no relief was correct judging by your feedback.
Cheers.
 
Joined
Jul 24, 2012
Messages
26,012
But who is to tell me what direction I should be hitting my ball
The organising committee or their representative is the simple answer.
My point is simply that I might want to make a reasonable stroke at the ball, taking a reasonable stance, but in a less obvious direction…

I fully accept that I may be wrong in this but I do struggle with the idea that it is the case that the organising committee can tell me what direction I should or should not be intending to hit my ball…I just don’t see how that can be the case. In my experience of the rules, the player is the sole judge about the shot or action he wishes to take. If as a result of that decision he is able to take advantage of the rules then so be it. The rules act against us often enough.

But I guess that I must bow to the rules experts.

Next…and not for this thread…when I putt off the green into the middle of a bunker or the middle of the fairway and I decide to take stroke and distance and put ball back on the green 😉
 
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
901
Location
Leicester
My point is simply that I might want to make a reasonable stroke at the ball, taking a reasonable stance, but in a less obvious direction…

I fully accept that I may be wrong in this but I do struggle with the idea that it is the case that the organising committee can tell me what direction I should or should not be intending to hit my ball…I just don’t see how that can be the case. In my experience of the rules, the player is the sole judge about the shot or action he wishes to take. If as a result of that decision he is able to take advantage of the rules then so be it. The rules act against us often enough.

But I guess that I must bow to the rules experts.

Next…and not for this thread…when I putt off the green into the middle of a bunker or the middle of the fairway and I decide to take stroke and distance and put ball back on the green 😉
You are not comparing like with like, if you take S&D anywhere then there is a penalty.
 
Joined
Jul 24, 2012
Messages
26,012
You are not comparing like with like, if you take S&D anywhere then there is a penalty.
Yes I know…the comparison is that for S&D I am the sole judge of when and under what circumstances I use S&D, and likewise I was thinking that I was the sole judge of the shot I wished to hit. So that having decided the shot I wished to play, if I was unable to take a stance (within reason) or make a swing (within reason) due to a staked tree then I’d get free relief. Seems like I was wrong.
 
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
901
Location
Leicester
Yes I know…the comparison is that for S&D I am the sole judge of when and under what circumstances I use S&D, and likewise I was thinking that I was the sole judge of the shot I wished to hit. So that having decided the shot I wished to play, if I was unable to take a stance (within reason) or make a swing (within reason) due to a staked tree then I’d get free relief. Seems like I was wrong.
Remember BK tried that one at the Ryder Cup and was rightly overruled by two referees.
 

rulie

Head Pro
Joined
Sep 2, 2015
Messages
1,081
Yes I know…the comparison is that for S&D I am the sole judge of when and under what circumstances I use S&D, and likewise I was thinking that I was the sole judge of the shot I wished to hit. So that having decided the shot I wished to play, if I was unable to take a stance (within reason) or make a swing (within reason) due to a staked tree then I’d get free relief. Seems like I was wrong.
The Rules and Committee will decide whether your stroke is reasonable or unreasonable only when you're seeking relief from an abnormal course condition.
 

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
4,229
Location
Edinburgh
Yes I know…the comparison is that for S&D I am the sole judge of when and under what circumstances I use S&D, and likewise I was thinking that I was the sole judge of the shot I wished to hit. So that having decided the shot I wished to play, if I was unable to take a stance (within reason) or make a swing (within reason) due to a staked tree then I’d get free relief. Seems like I was wrong.
What you are really saying, if I may be blunt enough to point it out, is that you feel you should be allowed to conjure up a direction of play that you wouldn't dream of taking were it not in the hope of getting free relief which you don't really deserve. ;)
The good thing is, however, that I'm sure if I came along as your friendly, how can I help you referee and denied you relief, you wouldn't be as rude as Mr Koepka was. :)
 

rulefan

Tour Winner
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
10,914
Yes I know…the comparison is that for S&D I am the sole judge of when and under what circumstances I use S&D, and likewise I was thinking that I was the sole judge of the shot I wished to hit. So that having decided the shot I wished to play, if I was unable to take a stance (within reason) or make a swing (within reason) due to a staked tree then I’d get free relief. Seems like I was wrong.
If you feel that you are being hard done by by a referee or that a fellow player will object and report you to the committee, you should then opt to play two balls under 20.1c(3) and let the committee decide.
 
Joined
Jul 24, 2012
Messages
26,012
What you are really saying, if I may be blunt enough to point it out, is that you feel you should be allowed to conjure up a direction of play that you wouldn't dream of taking were it not in the hope of getting free relief which you don't really deserve. ;)
The good thing is, however, that I'm sure if I came along as your friendly, how can I help you referee and denied you relief, you wouldn't be as rude as Mr Koepka was. :)
There are a number of occasions or scenarios when we can get free relief under the rules and that a fellow player or opponent might think is not deserved; is very lucky, or that generates a ‘woah - hold on - that can’t be right’ sort of response. And I simply thought close proximity to a staked tree ‘regardless’ was one of these situations where I might be able make the rules work for me when I didn’t really deserve it.

Seems to me that there could be circumstances that a player might want to play a shot in a direction that is not at all obvious to another player, and I am a bit surprised that if i chose to do that I’d have to explain my choice. I’ll add that I can’t recall ever actually pushing ‘free relief from staked tree‘ in quite the way I’m suggesting I could.

Anyway. My thinking is now corrected. 👍
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
2,857
There are a number of occasions or scenarios when we can get free relief under the rules and that a fellow player or opponent might think is not deserved; is very lucky, or that generates a ‘woah - hold on - that can’t be right’ sort of response. And I simply thought close proximity to a staked tree ‘regardless’ was one of these situations where I might be able make the rules work for me when I didn’t really deserve it.

Seems to me that there could be circumstances that a player might want to play a shot in a direction that is not at all obvious to another player, and I am a bit surprised that if i chose to do that I’d have to explain my choice. I’ll add that I can’t recall ever actually pushing ‘free relief from staked tree‘ in quite the way I’m suggesting I could.

Anyway. My thinking is now corrected. 👍
You can claim you want to play any direction you want. If questioned, Referee or Committee may be called to evaluate the situation. The player can try and justify why they want to play in the less than obvious direction. Maybe the red will see it from your point of view, and give you free relief. Maybe they would not, and you don't get relief. We've seen this on the professional tours many times over the years. As we play at a level where referees or even Committees do not often get involved, and we sort it amongst our groups, I would be extremely uncomfortable trying to take an unusual line and claiming relief. My reason to play that line would need to be water tight. Not great for a golfers reputation who tries to claim relief in what others feel are dubious circumstances.
 

rulie

Head Pro
Joined
Sep 2, 2015
Messages
1,081
You can claim you want to play any direction you want. If questioned, Referee or Committee may be called to evaluate the situation. The player can try and justify why they want to play in the less than obvious direction. Maybe the red will see it from your point of view, and give you free relief. Maybe they would not, and you don't get relief. We've seen this on the professional tours many times over the years. As we play at a level where referees or even Committees do not often get involved, and we sort it amongst our groups, I would be extremely uncomfortable trying to take an unusual line and claiming relief. My reason to play that line would need to be water tight. Not great for a golfers reputation who tries to claim relief in what others feel are dubious circumstances.
Such a reputation leads to closer scrutiny and often more justification.
 
Top