Reducing penalties

[berniethebolt]

If my reading of the new rules coming into effect next year is correct then I am pleased that some sympathy is being shown to us everyday golfers who incur penalties as a result of an unintended or accidental action from which they gain little if any advantage. I refer to the removal of a penalty for hitting the ball twice, hitting the ball onto yourself or your equipment and moving your ball during a search. Perhaps they could have extended this to cover two other cases through the green.

1. Hitting a ball in play with a practice swing
2. Moving the ball while addressing it.

In both cases the action is unintended, the ball has to be replaced and it is difficult to see how any advantage could be gained

 

[rulefan]

If my reading of the new rules coming into effect next year is correct then I am pleased that some sympathy is being shown to us everyday golfers who incur penalties as a result of an unintended or accidental action from which they gain little if any advantage. I refer to the removal of a penalty for hitting the ball twice, hitting the ball onto yourself or your equipment and moving your ball during a search. Perhaps they could have extended this to cover two other cases through the green.

1. Hitting a ball in play with a practice swing
2. Moving the ball while addressing it.

In both cases the action is unintended, the ball has to be replaced and it is difficult to see how any advantage could be gained

The current rules relating to the changes make no mention of any potential advantage gain

Although unintended in the examples you mention, the possibility is certainly predictable.

 

[Crow]

All these new rules to make the game easier, quicker and simpler? Pah!

Why not just say that if you manage to hit the ball on the tee then it counts as a hole in one?

 

[berniethebolt]

Sorry I have obviously misunderstood. I had assumed that the reason for the changes was to remove penalties in circumstances beyond the control of the player where breach of a rule brought no advantages. If this is not so then why were they changed? If, for example, there is to be no penalty for moving your ball when searching (and presumably replacing it before playing) then why should there be a penalty for moving it unintentionally or accidentally in other situations? Also I do not understand your last sentence. What " ... possibility is certainly predictable"?

 

[rulefan]

In both your cases the player is in control of what he is doing. Taking a practice swing near to the ball is always going to be dodgy and he doesn't have to be close. His choice.
Similarly, addressing the ball. He can see the ball, he should have control of his club. If he doesn't he shouldn't address it.
Of course there is no penalty if this happens on the green.

He is in control in both situations when the 'accident' occurs. Both were avoidable and the possible consequences predictable if care is not taken.

 

[cliveb]

I must have misunderstood the changes. I was under the impression that accidentally moving your ball through the green would incur no penalty, which I interpreted would include knocking it with a practice swing or when addressing it. Please can someone give us the exact wording?

 

[rulefan]

Not 'through the green' but 'on the putting green'

Accidental Movement on Putting Green: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move on the putting green (see Rule 13.1d), no matter how that happens.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

The rule makers are walking a fine line and trying to keep the basic principle of playing the ball as it lies.

Thus if you move the ball by "accident" and then replace it there is the concern you will get an advantage.

Yes they have addressed accidental movement on the tee and green - which they were bounced into by too many televised incidents - but going the full distance of replacing any ball accidentally moved it too far for them at the moment.

Whatever next - relief from divots on a fairway or footprints in a bunker! :sbox:

 

[berniethebolt]

In both your cases the player is in control of what he is doing. Taking a practice swing near to the ball is always going to be dodgy and he doesn't have to be close. His choice.
Similarly, addressing the ball. He can see the ball, he should have control of his club. If he doesn't he shouldn't address it.
Of course there is no penalty if this happens on the green.

He is in control in both situations when the 'accident' occurs. Both were avoidable and the possible consequences predictable if care is not taken.

Yes but it seems that exceptions are made on the tee and on the putting green and in both situations 'he is in control' according to your view. Why not elsewhere when no advantage is gained as the ball has to be replaced.

 

[rulie]

Yes but it seems that exceptions are made on the tee and on the putting green and in both situations 'he is in control' according to your view. Why not elsewhere when no advantage is gained as the ball has to be replaced.

Play it as you wish, or by the Rules - whichever works best for you.

 

[Colin L]

Made a mistake! Will re-post.

 

[Colin L]

Yes but it seems that exceptions are made on the tee and on the putting green and in both situations 'he is in control' according to your view. Why not elsewhere when no advantage is gained as the ball has to be replaced.

The new exceptions will be for accidental movement on the putting green, when searching for your ball and in the teeing area.

Why the exceptions? Some thoughts:

It is unreasonable to penalise a player who finds his ball by treading on it or kicking it. Rulefan mentions situations over which you have control but you don't have control when you can't see your ball.

On the putting green, it takes away arguments about minute movements of the ball and takes away the penalty/no penalty question in whether the player caused the ball to move or it was moved by the wind or the slope. Given the regular surface of a putting green, there is no potential for the moved ball to be replaced (innocently or otherwise) in a slightly advantageous way.

On the tee, there is a new rule [6.2 b2(6)] allowing you to lift a ball on the teeing area after a stroke and place it elsewhere in the area (teeing up if wished). Since that will be allowed, it wouldn't make sense to penalise an accidental movement of the ball.

 

[duncan mackie]

Yes but it seems that exceptions are made on the tee and on the putting green and in both situations 'he is in control' according to your view. Why not elsewhere when no advantage is gained as the ball has to be replaced.

With regards to these exceptions you refer to...

Until a ball is in play you can do just about anything with it; assuming this is what you mean by on the tee it's hardly an exception. The other changes regarding the teeing ground are also consistent with this.

On the putting green

1. you already have the right to lift the ball and replace it without restriction
2. It is a prepared surface where any v minor difference in where its replaced can be presumed to have no consequence (even more so going forward). The evolviing rules here have more to do with
issue avoidance than any wider change.

The one regarding searching is long overdue and part of the speed of play aspect. Currently your fellow competitions, any outside agencies and even your opponents can move your ball when searching for it but neither you, nor any partner, can do so. With the reduced searching period this seems somewhat counter-intuitive. A sensible, consistent, change IMO.

Your rights to lift a ball ttg are already strictly controlled, and there's no real need to go further.

Edit - must type faster as Colin has posted between my starting and posting 😀

 

[Colin L]

Edit - must type faster as Colin has posted between my starting and posting 😀

Only a problem if we contradict each other!

 

[jim8flog]

With regards to these exceptions you refer to...

Until a ball is in play you can do just about anything with it; assuming this is what you mean by on the tee it's hardly an exception. The other changes regarding the teeing ground are also consistent with this.




Within the new rules there is now a rule which says something like*

You can re tee the ball after a stroke and change where you are teeing from if the ball remains in the teeing area without additional penalty.

*note at home at the moment so my new rules download is not with me.

 

[duncan mackie]

Within the new rules there is now a rule which says something like*

You can re tee the ball after a stroke and change where you are teeing from if the ball remains in the teeing area without additional penalty.

*note at home at the moment so my new rules download is not with me.

These are the other changes regarding the teeing ground referred to in the bit you quote, and Colin has already outlined them in more detail.

Don't understand the point you are making?

 

[berniethebolt]

With regards to these exceptions you refer to...

Until a ball is in play you can do just about anything with it; assuming this is what you mean by on the tee it's hardly an exception. The other changes regarding the teeing ground are also consistent with this.

On the putting green

1. you already have the right to lift the ball and replace it without restriction
2. It is a prepared surface where any v minor difference in where its replaced can be presumed to have no consequence (even more so going forward). The evolviing rules here have more to do with
issue avoidance than any wider change.

The one regarding searching is long overdue and part of the speed of play aspect. Currently your fellow competitions, any outside agencies and even your opponents can move your ball when searching for it but neither you, nor any partner, can do so. With the reduced searching period this seems somewhat counter-intuitive. A sensible, consistent, change IMO.

Your rights to lift a ball ttg are already strictly controlled, and there's no real need to go further.

Edit - must type faster as Colin has posted between my starting and posting 😀

I find it interesting on a sociological basis that my suggestion that the rules might be somewhat inconsistent re accidental actions has, in some quarters, cast me as a cross between Beelzebub and Ghengis Khan poised to tear up the rule book and ruin the game. The rules are not set in stone and have been regularly adjusted throughout the 50 + years I have been playing.
The incident which prompted my original comment arose when a relative newcomer to the game had addressed his ball (on the fairway not tee) when a gust of wind blew his hat off. He instinctively grabbed at it and his club turned and moved the ball a couple of inches. He was less than impressed when I told him that not only must he replace the ball but he had also incurred a penalty stroke. (Rule 18-2b) He was even less impressed when he asked why, as his action was purely instinctive and had not intended to move the ball, and all I could say was that the rules say so. No doubt common sense will arrive sooner or later.

 

[Colin L]

Well, I wouldn't engage your services as a sociologist.

What I hope you and your newbie friend will come to appreciate is that most penalties in golf arise from situations the player did not intend, situations which were accidental. The usual reason for a penalty is that the disallowed action might lead to an advantage over your opponent or the others in a stroke play field. Sometimes no advantage will accrue, but the penalty ensures that overall, any advantage is compensated for (on behalf of the others) by that penalty. In the particular example of accidentally moving your ball in play, the potential advantage lies in the fact that replacing is not necessarily exact and so it could be that after replacing you have a slightly better lie.

So there you are, the next time the subject crops up, you will have a better answer than just because the rules say so.

 

[rulie]

I find it interesting on a sociological basis that my suggestion that the rules might be somewhat inconsistent re accidental actions has, in some quarters, cast me as a cross between Beelzebub and Ghengis Khan poised to tear up the rule book and ruin the game. The rules are not set in stone and have been regularly adjusted throughout the 50 + years I have been playing.
The incident which prompted my original comment arose when a relative newcomer to the game had addressed his ball (on the fairway not tee) when a gust of wind blew his hat off. He instinctively grabbed at it and his club turned and moved the ball a couple of inches. He was less than impressed when I told him that not only must he replace the ball but he had also incurred a penalty stroke. (Rule 18-2b) He was even less impressed when he asked why, as his action was purely instinctive and had not intended to move the ball, and all I could say was that the rules say so. No doubt common sense will arrive sooner or later.

Please help, I cannot find Rule 18-2b in my Rule book?

 

[North Mimms]

Not 'through the green' but 'on the putting green'

Accidental Movement on Putting Green: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move on the putting green (see Rule 13.1d), no matter how that happens.

To clarify--this is a current rule?