Red Stakes

[Crazyface]

Well it appears i've been made to look a right nanna. Red stakes ruling. This states that you can play two club lengths from the point of entry. FACT! So this actually means that if the area of the red stakes is a narrow one (a ditch) you could play either side? Yes? Ah ha but nooooooooooooo. Following the rule book, which I and our Pro read yesterday, and discussed, at lenth, this ONLY APPLIES IF THERE HAS BEEN A LOCAL RULE PIUT IN PLACE. But the actual rule itself does not state this, it'san add on. The rules states, two club lengths from point of entry. Now I'm a rules person, in life, as in golf. Use them to your advantage when you can. Moan when they hurt you, but you follow them. So, Rulies out there. Tell me where, in the rule itself, it says that it has to be a local rule to use the two club lengths from point of entry.

This is not an attack on the rules, you do not have to defend them, just point out where I'm missing something, coz for the life of me.I cannot find it.

This has taken me ages to type as I am 1 bottle of wine and two large rums deep into father day.

 

[nickjdavis]

Well it appears i've been made to look a right nanna. Red stakes ruling. This states that you can play two club lengths from the point of entry. FACT! So this actually means that if the area of the red stakes is a narrow one (a ditch) you could play either side? Yes? Ah ha but nooooooooooooo. Following the rule book, which I and our Pro read yesterday, and discussed, at lenth, this ONLY APPLIES IF THERE HAS BEEN A LOCAL RULE PIUT IN PLACE. But the actual rule itself does not state this, it'san add on. The rules states, two club lengths from point of entry. Now I'm a rules person, in life, as in golf. Use them to your advantage when you can. Moan when they hurt you, but you follow them. So, Rulies out there. Tell me where, in the rule itself, it says that it has to be a local rule to use the two club lengths from point of entry.

This is not an attack on the rules, you do not have to defend them, just point out where I'm missing something, coz for the life of me.I cannot find it.

This has taken me ages to type as I am 1 bottle of wine and two large rums deep into father day.

The reference to a local rule (allowing lateral relief on the opposite side of a red penalty area) is not in the pocket rules book that most golfers carry, but it is in the "full rules" and it is shown in the R&A mobile rules app at the very end of Rule 17.1d

This is the issue with the pocket book....it is only designed to cover the majority of most common situations that a golfer might come across. Some "niche" situations are not described.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The pocket book states that the relief area can not include any part of the penalty area.

I understand this to mean that extending the two club lengths from point of entry across to the other side of the penalty area is not allowed.

Unless I'm wrong.

 

[rulie]

Interesting question and discussion. I understand the part about the Local Rule requirement to allow the reference point for relief to be on the opposite side of a red penalty area and that relief area cannot include part of the same penalty area (diagrams often show the relief area being truncated by the edge of the penalty area. However, I'm not sure that the Rules prohibit measuring the two club-lengths across a narrow penalty area, so narrow that the two club-lengths would provide part of a relief area on the other side. Of course a player can stand in the penalty area to play the ball after relief is taken.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Interesting question and discussion. I understand the part about the Local Rule requirement to allow the reference point for relief to be on the opposite side of a red penalty area and that relief area cannot include part of the same penalty area (diagrams often show the relief area being truncated by the edge of the penalty area. However, I'm not sure that the Rules prohibit measuring the two club-lengths across a narrow penalty area, so narrow that the two club-lengths would provide part of a relief area on the other side. Of course a player can stand in the penalty area to play the ball after relief is taken.

That would mean including the narrow penalty area within the relief area.

The rule states that the relief area,

"May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area"

 

[Crazyface]

Interesting question and discussion. I understand the part about the Local Rule requirement to allow the reference point for relief to be on the opposite side of a red penalty area and that relief area cannot include part of the same penalty area (diagrams often show the relief area being truncated by the edge of the penalty area. However, I'm not sure that the Rules prohibit measuring the two club-lengths across a narrow penalty area, so narrow that the two club-lengths would provide part of a relief area on the other side. Of course a player can stand in the penalty area to play the ball after relief is taken.

Thank the lord for this. I thought I was going mad. It's not clear.

 

[Crazyface]

The pocket book states that the relief area can not include any part of the penalty area.

I understand this to mean that extending the two club lengths from point of entry across to the other side of the penalty area is not allowed.

Unless I'm wrong.

It's interpretation of the rule. One says x one says y. I don't think it's clear. If you have a rule, and then change it, make sure you cover all scenarios that can happen and what action you are suppose to take I thought I was right, then thought I was wrong, now? I don't pigging know.

 

[nickjdavis]

That would mean including the narrow penalty area within the relief area.

The rule states that the relief area,

"May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area"

No it wouldnt. As you state, the relief area by definition must be outside the penalty area.

Hoewever, if you transcribe the full 180 degrees of the arc of 2 club lengths from the reference point X (where the ball crossed the margin of the penalty area) it might cover some, or a lot of the penalty area, but in certain situations there may be a small area of the semi circle (cross hatched) that exists outside the penalty area on the opposite bank as well as on the same side of the bank as the reference point. I agree that i cant see any rule preventing me from dropping here.

Why you might want to is another matter....Maybe dropping on the "left side" would give a nice flat lie whereas dropping on the (course) side might put you on a severe slope.

 

[nickjdavis]

I think the reference to the local rule for relief on the opposite bank is a bit of a red herring, and whoever raised it was misinterpreting what CF was doing/wanting to do and misunderstanding the intent of the local rule.

 

[Voyager EMH]

No it wouldnt. As you state, the relief area by definition must be outside the penalty area.

Hoewever, if you transcribe the full 180 degrees of the arc of 2 club lengths from the reference point X (where the ball crossed the margin of the penalty area) it might cover some, or a lot of the penalty area, but in certain situations there may be a small area of the semi circle (cross hatched) that exists outside the penalty area on the opposite bank as well as on the same side of the bank as the reference point. I agree that i cant see any rule preventing me from dropping here.

Why you might want to is another matter....Maybe dropping on the "left side" would give a nice flat lie whereas dropping on the (course) side might put you on a severe slope.

View attachment 58457

In your drawing a good portion of the relief area is then in the penalty area.

The relief area can not be two separate parts. It must be one whole area.

No part of the relief area can be in the penalty area - thus the relief area must be wholly on the side of the penalty area where the entry point is.

A drawing such as yours will not be in the rules of golf.

 

[nickjdavis]

In your drawing a good portion of the relief area is then in the penalty area.

The relief area can not be two separate parts. It must be one whole area.

No part of the relief area can be in the penalty area - thus the relief area must be wholly on the side of the penalty area where the entry point is.

A drawing such as yours will not be in the rules of golf.

Can you provide a reference for this statement? It would certainly draw a line under the OP's question....but I've never seen this stated anywhere and cant find anything in the rules or definitions that support this.

Indeed, 17.1d implies that there may be multiple relief areas, as it says, when describing the limits of the relief area...

"If more than one area of the course is located within two club lengths of the reference point, the ball must come to rest in the relief area in the same area of the course that the ball first touched when dropped in the relief area".

"More than one area" implies that the areas are physically separate...otherwise they would be the same relief area.

I agree that such a drawing would not be included in the RoG but only because it is such a highly unlikely scenario where you would have a penalty area that is narrower than two club lengths. The Rule book cannot provide pictures for every scenario...only the more commonly encountered ones.

 

[Steven Rules]

The relief area can not be two separate parts. It must be one whole area.

Where does it say this in the Rules?

No part of the relief area can be in the penalty area - thus the relief area must be wholly on the side of the penalty area where the entry point is.

I think you are misunderstanding the Rule.

The requirement is that the relief area must be within two club lengths of the reference point and can be in any area of the course except the same penalty area. How does the left hand hatched area in Nick's diagram not meet this requirement?

 

[Steven Rules]

Furthermore Clarification 17.1d(3)/1

Player May Measure Across Penalty Area In Taking Lateral Relief

In taking lateral relief where the ball last crossed the edge of a narrow red penalty area, it may be possible for the player to measure the two club-lengths from the reference point across the penalty area in determining the size of the relief area. However, any part of the penalty area within the two club-lengths as measured from the reference point is not part of the relief area.

 

[Steven Rules]

I think the reference to the local rule for relief on the opposite bank is a bit of a red herring, and whoever raised it was misinterpreting what CF was doing/wanting to do and misunderstanding the intent of the local rule.

I agree. I suspect the original pro shop advice to Crazyface was getting confused between the situation in this scenario and the absent and irrelevant (in this scenario) Model Local Rule B-2 for opposite side relief.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Where does it say this in the Rules?


I think you are misunderstanding the Rule.

The requirement is that the relief area must be within two club lengths of the reference point and can be in any area of the course except the same penalty area. How does the left hand hatched area in Nick's diagram not meet this requirement?

Because the relief area is everywhere within the 2-clublengths and none of that can be in the penalty area.
Thus the relief area can not straddle the penalty area.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Can you provide a reference for this statement? It would certainly draw a line under the OP's question....but I've never seen this stated anywhere and cant find anything in the rules or definitions that support this.

Indeed, 17.1d implies that there may be multiple relief areas, as it says, when describing the limits of the relief area...

"If more than one area of the course is located within two club lengths of the reference point, the ball must come to rest in the relief area in the same area of the course that the ball first touched when dropped in the relief area".

"More than one area" implies that the areas are physically separate...otherwise they would be the same relief area.

I agree that such a drawing would not be included in the RoG but only because it is such a highly unlikely scenario where you would have a penalty area that is narrower than two club lengths. The Rule book cannot provide pictures for every scenario...only the more commonly encountered ones.

"May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area"

You begin with the entry point.
You identify the relief area from there.
You can not include any part of the penalty area.
The other side of the penalty area can not be reached.

 

[Steven Rules]

I understand this to mean that extending the two club lengths from point of entry across to the other side of the penalty area is not allowed.

Unless I'm wrong.

How do you reconcile your interpretation with post #13 / Clarification 17.1d(3)/1?

 

[Voyager EMH]

How do you reconcile your interpretation with post #13 / Clarification 17.1d(3)/1?

I don't.

It is a contradiction.
I do not feel that I have an interpretation. I have a comprehension of the rule as written.

I would think most of us do not refer to the Clarifications. I don't.

The rule that I read does not cause me any doubt or confusion. The identified, or measured, relief area can not include the penalty area.
I do not seek any clarification.

I think that the regular rules should include another drawing that allows straddling of the penalty area and a change to the wording, if this is within the rules.

 

[Steven Rules]

I would think most of us do not refer to the Clarifications. I don't.

Regardless of whether people refer to them or not, the Clarifications are there to clarify issues like....this.

There is no contradiction. The explanation that Nick, I, and the Clarification have provided is consistent and correct. Your strong stance is incorrect and is based on your misinterpretation of the Rule and how relief areas are described.

You seem to be dismissing the information that the R&A and USGA have provided in black and white in preference to your own misunderstanding.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Regardless of whether people refer to them or not, the Clarifications are there to clarify issues like....this.

There is no contradiction. The explanation that Nick, I, and the Clarification have provided is consistent and correct. Your strong stance is incorrect and is based on your misinterpretation of the Rule and how relief areas are described.

You seem to be dismissing the information that the R&A and USGA have provided in black and white in preference to your own misunderstanding.

This is far to strong an attack on me and an insult to my intelligence.

I read the rules.
I have a very good comprehension of the written word.

There is a contradiction, as you have pointed out by reference to the clarifications. Which I, and most keen regular golfers, do not refer to.
This requires a change to the wording of the regular rules and another illustration.