Red penalty area with ambiguous extent

[jim8flog]

Is there an argument that despite not being marked correctly the ditch is the penalty area and natural line of the ditch define the area?

A good point

From the definitions

When the edge of a body of water is not defined by the Committee, the edge of that penalty area is defined by its natural boundaries (that is, where the ground slopes down to form the depression that can hold the water).

 

[KenL]

Is a ditch a body of water?

Does the ditch have to water in it?

 

[rulie]

Is a ditch a body of water? Irrelevant in 2019

Does the ditch have to water in it? No

 

[cliveb]

The Definition would support such a view. The area beyond the ditch would not be included unless specifically defined bt the Committee
A penalty area is:
Any body of water on the course (whether or not marked by the Committee), ..........
and any other part of the course the Committee defines as a penalty area.

Ah right. So it seems that what has been said earlier in the thread (that the lack of stakes on the far side of the ditch means the penalty area extends to infinity) is not in fact the case, and that unless the committee says so, the trees beyond the ditch are NOT in the penalty area?

 

[backwoodsman]

Ah right. So it seems that what has been said earlier in the thread (that the lack of stakes on the far side of the ditch means the penalty area extends to infinity) is not in fact the case, and that unless the committee says so, the trees beyond the ditch are NOT in the penalty area?

I'm not sure that's the case.

If there were no markings at all, the ditch (and just the ditch), by definition, would be a penalty area. But, marking only one side creates ambiguity. If one side of a penalty area is marked, then surely (??) the extent of the penalty area (ie the other side) needs to be clarified - either by more markings, or by some kind of stated definition by the "committee". Without that, the player is put in an invidious position should his ball end up beyond the single line of stakes?

 

[rulefan]

IMO the second part of the definition is clear enough. If the committee has not defined a non water area as a penalty area, it is not.

 

[backwoodsman]

IMO the second part of the definition is clear enough. If the committee has not defined a non water area as a penalty area, it is not.

Point taken , but a query...

If something is marked one one side only, in the absence of any other information, how can one know the extent of what is being marked? Especially when there is a feature that by reason of definition, does not actually require marking?

 

[rulie]

Imo, the Committee has done a half-a$$ed job and needs to clarify their markings either by a notice or further marking on the course.

 

[cliveb]

If something is marked one one side only, in the absence of any other information, how can one know the extent of what is being marked?

Apropos this, I'm pretty sure I've seen courses abroad (Canaries) where ravines at the boundary of the course are marked with red rather than white stakes, implying they are lateral water hazards extending to infinity. That way you can take a 2CL drop rather than be OOB. (Perhaps this is done because they are resort courses and they want to keep up pace of play)

 

[cliveb]

Imo, the Committee has done a half-a$$ed job and needs to clarify their markings either by a notice or further marking on the course.

Agreed. I will ask them to clarify things.

 

[backwoodsman]

Apropos this, I'm pretty sure I've seen courses abroad (Canaries) where ravines at the boundary of the course are marked with red rather than white stakes, implying they are lateral water hazards extending to infinity. That way you can take a 2CL drop rather than be OOB. (Perhaps this is done because they are resort courses and they want to keep up pace of play)

Agreed, I've seen them marked one side only over there too. But I'm pretty sure that on the one I've seen (Tecina on La Gomera) clarifies the situation by "statement" - so there is no ambiguity. Bung a aball into the barranco, and you are able to drop under lateral rules. Part of reasoning is pace of play, but mostly because it is too dangerous to attempt to retrieve the ball.

 

[rulefan]

Red water hazards extending to infinity are not uncommon. Pebble Beach is perhaps the best known, where the next land after the beach is Hawaii.

However, Lateral Water Hazards, as opposed to Penalty Areas, had to involve water in some way. The barrancas at Tecina qualified because there is water in them at certain times of the year.
However, in the US it is common to see 'unplayable' rough deemed to be a LWH. Arguably it saves time on congested courses and taking a provisional doesn't fit the macho image.

 

[cliveb]

Part of reasoning is pace of play, but mostly because it is too dangerous to attempt to retrieve the ball.

Why is there any difference between retrieving a ball from a water hazard versus out of bounds?

 

[backwoodsman]

Why is there any difference between retrieving a ball from a water hazard versus out of bounds?

Presumably because with OOB you'd have to go back if you could not find it (and had not played a prov).

As regards danger, no difference I guess - but at least with it being a red P.A. the temptation to go to find it is presumably reduced in that you know you can carry on with 2CL drop?

 

[cliveb]

Presumably because with OOB you'd have to go back if you could not find it (and had not played a prov).

Indeed. And you'll have to go back whether you find it or not, of course. So as a pace of play measure it makes sense.

As regards danger, no difference I guess - but at least with it being a red P.A. the temptation to go to find it is presumably reduced in that you know you can carry on with 2CL drop?

If I've just dumped a brand new ProV1 over the edge, whether I choose to retrieve it will be influenced solely by how dangerous it looks - not whether the stakes are red or white.
(Not that I play with brand new ProV1s near ravines - or lakes for that matter )

 

[KenL]

At my club Dunbar GC) the beach and North Sea are all marked as red penalty areas and always have been as far as I know.

This extends for pretty much the length of the course and comes into play on 7 holes. (We also have a wall that is OoB right next to 6 holes.)

North Berwick (both courses) also have the beach as a penalty area whereas Kilspindie considers the beach OoB.