R&A Policy on Transgender

[Backache]

Yes I agree ,Most men who go to the red tees at ours get a three shot difference.
So 10 shots is not going to happen imo.

The actual difference will be greater for people transitioning because the CR is different for men and women.
Having said that Handicap golf should remain at least relatively equitable.
It's really scratch golf that people who have undergone androgenic puberty will retain a significant advantage over those who have not.

 

[Dunesman]

I don’t really understand your point. Handicap is based on the number of strokes you take, not how far you hit it.

Based on the number of strokes you take, but relative to a course rating though, I think. So ladies tees, rated for a lady, will not be the same as them rated for a man. Due to the length difference assumed for the rating, it would be lower for the longer hitting man. Or have I the wrong understanding on that?
If not, then the 'man' playing the ladies tees against the ladies course rating will have a lower handicap than they would playing it agaist the mens course rating.

 

[C7usk]

I thought the course rating / slope etc are related to the tees. The tees not necessarily gender based either. I believe the gender term for tees is a bit old fashioned now and it's just colour related.

 

[D-S]

If you think about it this way, if you suddenly decided to identify as the other gender, you would go to a set of tees (rated for your gender) and have to put three 18 hole rounds (or 6 x 9 hole rounds, anyway 54 holes in total) as you would be gaining a ‘different’ handicap.
This will give you a new HI for that gender which will allow you to compete against players of your new gender and the opposite gender (using the existing balancing shots as per the system now).
This HI might be x shots higher or y shots lower than your ‘old gender’ HI. Either way it will not give you a competitive advantage and will adjust, as currently, over time to reflect your changing or not ability just as it does now.

 

[KenL]

I thought the course rating / slope etc are related to the tees. The tees not necessarily gender based either. I believe the gender term for tees is a bit old fashioned now and it's just colour related.

There are different handicap lists for men and women.

 

[PJ87]

There are different handicap lists for men and women.

Why is this? When WHS came in surely it was a good time to just have one handicap for men and women. Tees all rated the same. Surely all that would happen is if a course par changes for ladies their handicap would go up and still able to compete off the same tees?

Logically ofc

 

[3 jabber]

There is no need for anything specific, the handicap system should counter any physical advantage a transgender player might have.

Works fine for handicap events but club championship off scratch would still be an issue.

 

[Golfnut1957]

Works fine for handicap events but club championship off scratch would still be an issue.

Difficult decisions to be made about what to wear on presentation night.

 

[KenL]

Difficult decisions to be made about what to wear on presentation night.

 

[sunshine]

Based on the number of strokes you take, but relative to a course rating though, I think. So ladies tees, rated for a lady, will not be the same as them rated for a man. Due to the length difference assumed for the rating, it would be lower for the longer hitting man. Or have I the wrong understanding on that?
If not, then the 'man' playing the ladies tees against the ladies course rating will have a lower handicap than they would playing it agaist the mens course rating.

But then the person’s handicap would drop, because the differentials would be lower.

 

[sunshine]

Difficult decisions to be made about what to wear on presentation night.

Why?

 

[louise_a]

With regard to non elite competitions particularly handicap competitions, a players handicap is taken according to the course and slope rating for the tee they are playing from providing it is rated for their gender. A transwoman's handicap is based on woman's slope and CR just the same as any other woman.
Speaking personally, I do not hit the ball any further than any woman at my level in fact there are several at my club with a higher handicap who hit the ball further than me, hormones and lack of testosterone have a very big effect on you.
I do play in scratch competitions both at my club and at county level, I do ok at my club but am blown out of the water at a higher level.
When I started playing, England Golf had a framework and with regard to the length of time you had been on hormones and at what stage you were at in transition, I did actually get a letter from England Golf stating that I was allowed to play in any of their women's competitions. This stopped those who were transitioning but not having hormone therapy and as I said early hormones and lack of testosterone really do reduce your strength,
I currently hit my drive around 160-180 yards depending on run out, my 7 iron about 105 yds. I play of 13.4, there is certainly no strength advantage there.

 

[Dunesman]

But then the person’s handicap would drop, because the differentials would be lower.

Yes, that being the problem in itself. Take a man off 5, goes to trans, and handicap moves to +3 as they are rated now against womens course ratings. Are they really an elite golfer and should they have entry to prestige national events ? I would say, no, they are still really a 5 in their golfing skill, and so would be unfairly bumping real women down the rankings, or out of such events.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Yes, that being the problem in itself. Take a man off 5, goes to trans, and handicap moves to +3 as they are rated now against womens course ratings. Are they really an elite golfer and should they have entry to prestige national events ? I would say, no, they are still really a 5 in their golfing skill, and so would be unfairly bumping real women down the rankings, or out of such events.

They wouldn’t have their handicap suddenly change when they go through transition

They would be first going through hormone treatments and once at a certain level they would then get a new handicap of the measured tees as a lady

The hormone treatments would mean they would lose distance etc and every chance they would still be a 5 HC off the red tees

 

[doublebogey7]

Yes, that being the problem in itself. Take a man off 5, goes to trans, and handicap moves to +3 as they are rated now against womens course ratings. Are they really an elite golfer and should they have entry to prestige national events ? I would say, no, they are still really a 5 in their golfing skill, and so would be unfairly bumping real women down the rankings, or out of such events.

The new policy is saying no, so what is the problem??

 

[rudebhoy]

Works fine for handicap events but club championship off scratch would still be an issue.

See post #12

 

[Swango1980]

I'm guessing that once a player has a handicap based on 20 scores, regardless of gender, then the gender issue becomes irrelevant for handicap competitions? Because, their handicap is simply based on their scores. So, even if a man decided they were a woman without any medical interventions and demanded playing off the ladies tees, after 20 scores they'd simply have a lower handicap (in the process of getting those 20 scores, they will probably be called a bandit).

But, in scratch competitions, it becomes a different argument. I've obviously a lot more questions than answers, so happy to leave it to the experts in the area. I appreciate the argument that a transgender woman will be taking medication and hormones will be completely different compared to when they started taking the medication, thus their performance will be inferior to what is was before most likely. However, does that medication put them on exactly the same scale within the female group as they were within the male group? So, if you picked 10,000 men at random before their transition, and they were ranked No. 2,000, would they then be ranked around 2,000 in a group of 10,000 random golfing women after transition? Or. would the medication make them even less competitive in that group, or would they be higher ranked within that group?

Also, does their ability rely on the medication they are on to suppress hormones? If they were to stop taking medication, change medication or reduce medication, would that enhance performance compared to taking the medication they were on to begin with? At elite level, performance enhancing drugs are strictly prohibited. But, for transgender athletes within female categories, I'm guessing it relies on performance reducing medication, thus medication is actually a requirement. How do the authorities an athlete is taking the correct medication?

 

[D-S]

I'm guessing that once a player has a handicap based on 20 scores, regardless of gender, then the gender issue becomes irrelevant for handicap competitions? Because, their handicap is simply based on their scores. So, even if a man decided they were a woman without any medical interventions and demanded playing off the ladies tees, after 20 scores they'd simply have a lower handicap (in the process of getting those 20 scores, they will probably be called a bandit).

As regards handicapping (I’m not going to enter the scratch debate), as far as I know there is no known or needed formula for converting a woman’s HI into a man’s or vice versa.
Therefore the player would have to start again by submitting 3 18 hole cards or 6 9 hole cards, then after that their first HI would be their best minus 2, then minus 1 etc. etc. just as all handicaps are adjusted before a full 20 score record is achieved. Provided these scores were genuine (no reason to suggest that they wouldn’t be) the player wouldn’t be a bandit.

 

[Swango1980]

As regards handicapping (I’m not going to enter the scratch debate), as far as I know there is no known or needed formula for converting a woman’s HI into a man’s or vice versa.
Therefore the player would have to start again by submitting 3 18 hole cards or 6 9 hole cards, then after that their first HI would be their best minus 2, then minus 1 etc. etc. just as all handicaps are adjusted before a full 20 score record is achieved. Provided these scores were genuine (no reason to suggest that they wouldn’t be) the player wouldn’t be a bandit.

Good point. I was sort of assuming the player would retain their Handicap Index they achieved as a male, and then start submitting scores based on the female ratings. Obviously that won't be the case if they need to start a completely fresh handicap

 

[sunshine]

Yes, that being the problem in itself. Take a man off 5, goes to trans, and handicap moves to +3 as they are rated now against womens course ratings. Are they really an elite golfer and should they have entry to prestige national events ? I would say, no, they are still really a 5 in their golfing skill, and so would be unfairly bumping real women down the rankings, or out of such events.

Prestige national events for elite golfers are not handicap competitions, so your whole argument is moot.