Quick Rules Question

[NorfolkShaun]

Had one today in a midweek that i'm not sure of the correct answer for.

A PP teed off, i never saw the ball but he said he was not sure where it was and it may of gone into the red staked river. So he proceed to hit a provisional and then put this into the river in around the same spot.

Nether ball was found, so he decided to proceed under a one stroke penalty dropping a ball where he stated the first went into the river and play his third shot, was this correct? and what was the deal with his provisional?

 

[ManinBlack]

Rule 26 - 1 says there has to be "knowledge or virtual certainty" that the ball is in the hazard. Obviously not the case here so your PP broke the rules. Don't you have can rule book? It took 2 minutes to look this up.

 

[pbrown7582]

issues here you cannot play a provisional if ball is in a water hazard. You cannot drop behind the hazard without being certain the ball is in the hazard.

 

[NorfolkShaun]

Rule 26 - 1 says there has to be "knowledge or virtual certainty" that the ball is in the hazard. Obviously not the case here so your PP broke the rules. Don't you have can rule book? It took 2 minutes to look this up.

I broached the subject with him and he got rather antsey as I stated if he had hit a provisional he was then playing his 5th when dropping. He just said stating that I was wrong and he only really hit the provisional for practice so it did not count. To be fair he was not on the score and i did not need an argument where I was not 100% sure I was right.

 

[NorfolkShaun]

issues here you cannot play a provisional if ball is in a water hazard. You cannot drop behind the hazard without being certain the ball is in the hazard.

Exactly what I thought, but I have to say I did not see the ball so could not say where it was he only said the first was in the water when we could not find it.

 

[pbrown7582]

Provisional for practice! He seems to be prepared to make up rules as he goes!

 

[palindromicbob]

From the OP it would appear there wasn't enough information whilst on the tee to know or be virtually certain that the first ball was lost in the hazard. Perfectly reasonable to play a provisional in this case.

If when you approach the hazard and all available information leads you to be virtually certain that the first is actually in the hazard then the provision must be abandoned and you proceed under Rule 26 for the first ball.

If there is still not enough information to know or be virtually certain the first was in the hazard then you proceed with the provisional.

 

[la_lucha]

In this situation I usually open the rules app on my phone, show him the relevant section and go from there. Saves all the need for arguments.

 

[Foxholer]

From the OP it would appear there wasn't enough information whilst on the tee to know or be virtually certain that the first ball was lost in the hazard. Perfectly reasonable to play a provisional in this case.

If when you approach the hazard and all available information leads you to be virtually certain that the first is actually in the hazard then the provision must be abandoned and you proceed under Rule 26 for the first ball.

If there is still not enough information to know or be virtually certain the first was in the hazard then you proceed with the provisional.

A Provisional Ball can only be played where the ball may be lost or out of bounds. The key is the KorVC about it being (lost) in the hazard! Simply not being able to find it in rough and saying 'It must be (lost) in the hazard' is not good enough!

So playing 5th shot by me!

 

[MashieNiblick]

From the OP it would appear there wasn't enough information whilst on the tee to know or be virtually certain that the first ball was lost in the hazard. Perfectly reasonable to play a provisional in this case.

If when you approach the hazard and all available information leads you to be virtually certain that the first is actually in the hazard then the provision must be abandoned and you proceed under Rule 26 for the first ball.

If there is still not enough information to know or be virtually certain the first was in the hazard then you proceed with the provisional.

I agree.

As I understand it the player did not necessarily proceed incorrectly subject to the following.

After playing the first ball from the tee there was some uncertainty that as to whether the ball had gone into the hazard or not - Decision 27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

On approaching the hazard it is clear that in the event the first ball could not be anywhere other than in the hazard and therefore it was virtually certain that the ball was in the hazard - Decision 26-1/1 Meaning of "Known or Virtually Certain".

However if it was not "virtually certain" that the first ball was in the hazard then the provisional ball effectively became the ball in play so 3 off the tee plus the penalty drop = playing 5.

 

[NorfolkShaun]

I agree.

As I understand it the player did not necessarily proceed incorrectly subject to the following.

After playing the first ball from the tee there was some uncertainty that as to whether the ball had gone into the hazard or not - Decision 27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

On approaching the hazard it is clear that in the event the first ball could not be anywhere other than in the hazard and therefore it was virtually certain that the ball was in the hazard - Decision 26-1/1 Meaning of "Known or Virtually Certain".

However if it was not "virtually certain" that the first ball was in the hazard then the provisional ball effectively became the ball in play so 3 off the tee plus the penalty drop = playing 5.

I think this is the way to go hence he played correctly, there is not enough rough that if you did not find the ball it could be reasonable considered to be anywhere other than in the hazard.

I do however think he was stretching the boundaries by playing the provisional. Hard for me to comment of as I did not know where the first was. I just felt it was out of the spirit to hit a provisional if he was just going to state that the first was in the river when unable to find it, in a way and I guess this is wrong if your going to play a provisional when you think your first maybe lost in a hazard upon not finding it just because the provisional was lost to you should not just say ok I will take the first.

If the provisional was in the middle of the fairway I asked what he would of done and he stated he would of played that, if this were the case it just does not seem right to take a drop and play your third.

 

[duncan mackie]

I broached the subject with him and he got rather antsey as I stated if he had hit a provisional he was then playing his 5th when dropping. He just said stating that I was wrong and he only really hit the provisional for practice so it did not count. To be fair he was not on the score and i did not need an argument where I was not 100% sure I was right.

This is an excellent example of real life.

I know it's easy for me to say that the answer becomes. ... so you are either playing 5 via 7-2/ 26-1 or via 27-2/26-1.... but he reality is he is playing 5 one way or the other!

 

[NorfolkShaun]

This is an excellent example of real life.

I know it's easy for me to say that the answer becomes. ... so you are either playing 5 via 7-2/ 26-1 or via 27-2/26-1.... but he reality is he is playing 5 one way or the other!

Thanks Duncan,

I think you make a good point and for me he was playing his 5th when dropping by the simple fact he played a provisional where he sould of simply walked ok the tee after the first one

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Had one today in a midweek that i'm not sure of the correct answer for.

A PP teed off, i never saw the ball but he said he was not sure where it was and it may of gone into the red staked river. So he proceed to hit a provisional and then put this into the river in around the same spot.

Nether ball was found, so he decided to proceed under a one stroke penalty dropping a ball where he stated the first went into the river and play his third shot, was this correct? and what was the deal with his provisional?

Playing 5 as others have said in detail. Your opening quote of what he said is the simple clincher. It's sounds like he really didn't have much idea where it went and for me vaguely thinking that it might have headed for the river does it. Nothing KoVC there.