Preferred Lies.

[oltimer]

It used to be pref lies were only allowed on grass cut to fairway height, I see the current local rules state "not recommended" for other parts of the general area, does that now mean it is in order
to have a local rule allowing them for off fairway lies (eg rough). ?

 

[rosecott]

It used to be pref lies were only allowed on grass cut to fairway height, I see the current local rules state "not recommended" for other parts of the general area, does that now mean it is in order
to have a local rule allowing them for off fairway lies (eg rough). ?

That really depends on whether you want your comps to be handicap "qualifiers" or not.

 

[oltimer]

tnks - course has been shortened due to an unplayable fairway needing repairing so non qualifyers anyway. I recall some 10 yrs ago we were refused permission and had a lift clean & replace local rule in the rough. what I really want to know is are we still playing to the rules of golf whilst having pref lies anywhere in the general area,

 

[Colin L]

It used to be pref lies were only allowed on grass cut to fairway height, I see the current local rules state "not recommended" for other parts of the general area, does that now mean it is in order
to have a local rule allowing them for off fairway lies (eg rough). ?

Yes, it is permitted to allow preferred lies throughout the general area or specified parts of the general area not cut to fairway height. That this is not recommended is to do with the possibility that on occasions a player might get relief from an otherwise impossible position like under a bush. I don't know why that isn't just covered by the usual relief exception for a situation where there isn't a reasonable stroke to be made, but there would be many less extreme examples of players getting out of a difficult lie. The purpose of preferred lies is to give you relief from poor conditions in an area where it's reasonable to expect a good lie, not to give you a chance, for example, to shift your ball out of a clump of thick grass that would have been a challenge even in the best of conditions. It's just an opinion, but if used at all, I'd be inclined to limit it to specified off-fairway areas where the the conditions cause additional and unreasonable challenges and only if such areas can't readily be defined as GUR.

 

[oltimer]

Yes, it is permitted to allow preferred lies throughout the general area or specified parts of the general area not cut to fairway height. That this is not recommended is to do with the possibility that on occasions a player might get relief from an otherwise impossible position like under a bush. I don't know why that isn't just covered by the usual relief exception for a situation where there isn't a reasonable stroke to be made, but there would be many less extreme examples of players getting out of a difficult lie. The purpose of preferred lies is to give you relief from poor conditions in an area where it's reasonable to expect a good lie, not to give you a chance, for example, to shift your ball out of a clump of thick grass that would have been a challenge even in the best of conditions. It's just an opinion, but if used at all, I'd be inclined to limit it to specified off-fairway areas where the the conditions cause additional and unreasonable challenges and only if such areas can't readily be defined as GUR.

v.many thanks just the info needed.

 

[jim8flog]

It used to be pref lies were only allowed on grass cut to fairway height, I see the current local rules state "not recommended" for other parts of the general area, does that now mean it is in order
to have a local rule allowing them for off fairway lies (eg rough). ?

The allowable local rule for areas not mown to to fairway height is lift clean and replace ( as per your post #3). However the recommendation is to limit it to specified areas.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

tnks - course has been shortened due to an unplayable fairway needing repairing so non qualifyers anyway. I recall some 10 yrs ago we were refused permission and had a lift clean & replace local rule in the rough. what I really want to know is are we still playing to the rules of golf whilst having pref lies anywhere in the general area,

Under WHS you can take that hole out using the system and allow the rest to form an acceptable course for handicap purposes.

 

[Deleted member 23344]

The problem at some courses at the moment is identifying what is fairway and what isn’t. Played a few inter-club matches recently where we needed to decide amongst ourselves what was, and what wasn’t, fairway.

 

[jim8flog]

The problem at some courses at the moment is identifying what is fairway and what isn’t. Played a few inter-club matches recently where we needed to decide amongst ourselves what was, and what wasn’t, fairway.

(2) Accepting Player’s “Reasonable Judgment” in Determining a Location When Applying the Rules.

Such determinations about location need to be made promptly and with care but often cannot be precise.
• So long as the player does what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate determination, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if, after the stroke is made

 

[clubchamp98]

The problem at some courses at the moment is identifying what is fairway and what isn’t. Played a few inter-club matches recently where we needed to decide amongst ourselves what was, and what wasn’t, fairway.

We always just go around the fairway edge with a hand mower to define the border.

 

[Deleted member 23344]

(2) Accepting Player’s “Reasonable Judgment” in Determining a Location When Applying the Rules.

Such determinations about location need to be made promptly and with care but often cannot be precise.
• So long as the player does what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate determination, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if, after the stroke is made

I have always asked my opponent before taking a preferred lie when there is any doubt as to whether or not the ball is on what might be construed as the fairway.

 

[Deleted member 23344]

We always just go around the fairway edge with a hand mower to define the border.

If only all courses did … although I appreciate that it is not as easy in the winter.

 

[Swango1980]

The problem at some courses at the moment is identifying what is fairway and what isn’t. Played a few inter-club matches recently where we needed to decide amongst ourselves what was, and what wasn’t, fairway.

I was wondering about that, as it is very hard to tell at our course. Fairway is not cut tight, and rough does not grow long. So, basically the difference between them is not noticeable at all.

Then I thought about the wording. It doesn't say preferred lies can be taken on fairways, greens or fringes. It just says they can be taken on grass that is cut to fairway height or less. Well, surely if the fairway is not cut tight, and the rough is really no longer (the normal first cut at least), would that not just mean preferred lies are allowed in the "first cut". Because, although it is the first cut in the summer, it is difficult to say it is the first cut, by eye, in the winter. Furthermore, if you were in an area that you'd expect would have been rough in the summer, but you are just in a bare muddy spot in the winter (i.e. the grass is patchy), could you argue you are sitting in a position where the grass is clearly at fairway height or less (i.e. no grass)? P.S. I wouldn't claim relief in that situation as it would seem to go against the principle of the rule. However, if an opponent put a case forward based on the letter of the law, I'd struggle to 100% tell them they are wrong.

 

[salfordlad]

The Committee is responsible for clearly marking the course so everyone plays to the same rules. If there is no clear distinction between closely mown and not closely mown, an alternative is to line draw the guidance. I know of courses that use blue lines to guide players and the course staff and volunteers that drive the mowers.

 

[jim8flog]

I have always asked my opponent before taking a preferred lie when there is any doubt as to whether or not the ball is on what might be construed as the fairway.

In match play so would I in stroke play I would make my own decision if there is nobody close to me. I hate being called from the other side of the fairway or some distance away to make a decision for another player.

 

[jim8flog]

The Committee is responsible for clearly marking the course so everyone plays to the same rules. If there is no clear distinction between closely mown and not closely mown, an alternative is to line draw the guidance. I know of courses that use blue lines to guide players and the course staff and volunteers that drive the mowers.

This makes me smile in memory. One member made a complaint to the committee that they found the lines defining the fairway very distracting, so they stopped doing it.

 

[salfordlad]

This makes me smile in memory. One member made a complaint to the committee that they found the lines defining the fairway very distracting, so they stopped doing it.

Wow, clarity rather than confusion in course marking attracting a complaint! And the Committee folded, simply mind-boggling unless it was clear there was no need for marking on some or all holes. I totally support members/players bringing their observations to the Committee, but the Committee's obligation is to the competition field, not simply to a squeaky wheel (if that is what it was).

 

[jim8flog]

I was wondering about that, as it is very hard to tell at our course. Fairway is not cut tight, and rough does not grow long. So, basically the difference between them is not noticeable at all.

Then I thought about the wording. It doesn't say preferred lies can be taken on fairways, greens or fringes. It just says they can be taken on grass that is cut to fairway height or less. Well, surely if the fairway is not cut tight, and the rough is really no longer (the normal first cut at least), would that not just mean preferred lies are allowed in the "first cut". Because, although it is the first cut in the summer, it is difficult to say it is the first cut, by eye, in the winter. Furthermore, if you were in an area that you'd expect would have been rough in the summer, but you are just in a bare muddy spot in the winter (i.e. the grass is patchy), could you argue you are sitting in a position where the grass is clearly at fairway height or less (i.e. no grass)? P.S. I wouldn't claim relief in that situation as it would seem to go against the principle of the rule. However, if an opponent put a case forward based on the letter of the law, I'd struggle to 100% tell them they are wrong.

As you say

When a player's ball lies in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less

Just because an area has the same height of grass does not mean you get relief.

 

[Swango1980]

As you say

When a player's ball lies in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less

Just because an area has the same height of grass does not mean you get relief.

The way I see it. I can just see the argument being that the rough is still "cut" grass, it just happens to be less than fairway height where their ball is.

 

[jim8flog]

The way I see it. I can just see the argument being that the rough is still "cut" grass, it just happens to be less than fairway height where their ball is.

Yes but it was originally not cut to fairway height or less it may just have grown less than the grass on the fairway due to different agronomy. I would go back to my post #9