rulefan
Tour Winner
Does the definition not say this?
A ball is “in play†as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground. It remains in play until it is ......... lifted,
When it ceases to be lifted it is in play.
Preferred lies and alignment mark on ball
- Thread starter BTatHome
- Start date
Does the definition not say this?
A ball is “in play†as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground. It remains in play until it is ......... lifted,
When it ceases to be lifted it is in play.
ger147
Tour Winner
Thanks for the links - no specific definition of "placed".
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
the rules, as law, use common definitions in the absence of specific definitions.
ger147
Tour Winner
The reason I was looking for a specific definition is, for me at least there are 2 different scenarios:
1) Placing the ball on the ground and lining up your aiming line/logo as part of a single process but you may well let go of the ball completely at one stage or another i.e. the exact same way you would replace your ball on the putting green and line up with an aiming line or the ball logo if you do that on the putting green.
2) Selecting a spot for your preferred lie and placing the ball and then deciding you don't like that exact spot and picking it up again and replacing it in another spot. This may be repeated several times.
My understanding is 2) is definitely a breach of the rule each time you pick up and replace after you have initially placed it but I was wondering if 1) is as well if you do that when using preferred lies.
Hence the question about the precise definition of "placing", or more specifically when do the rules say the process of placing is complete and your ball is now in play.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
at that point (marked up above) it is placed, and the provisions of the LR permitting a 'preferred lie' as an exception to 18-2 a (i) cease
subsequent purposeful touching of the ball, or moving it etc would fall under 18-2 a (i)
ger147
Tour Winner
So in English, for the hard of understanding (i.e. me), both scenarios I outlined above would be a breach of the rule?
rulefan
Tour Winner
Here is something Andy McFee said nine years ago.
When preferred lies are used, the rule should not be interpreted so narrowly to mean that the second a players fingers have let go of the ball,the ball has been placed once in accordance with the rule and cannot be touched again.
This is not how we interpret on the tours.Part of the problem with preferred lies is that it is not really golf as we know it and there is a very big grey area here which needs to be interpreted sensibly.
It is common on tour for players to lift and clean the ball and then fiddle around - shall i put it here, here or here - before finally settling on a spot. As long as this happens in one general movement we are ok with this.In practice the end of this process is often signaled by the player removing his tee and standing up - and that for the ref is the key - you need to decide when the process rather than a much narrower act has finished.
What the rule does not allow is for the player, having made a clear choice,to bend down again and put the ball back on the nice perch he had chosen if it should fall off or, return to the ball and make another choice.In our view he now has a clean ball and should now play.
When preferred lies are used, the rule should not be interpreted so narrowly to mean that the second a players fingers have let go of the ball,the ball has been placed once in accordance with the rule and cannot be touched again.
This is not how we interpret on the tours.Part of the problem with preferred lies is that it is not really golf as we know it and there is a very big grey area here which needs to be interpreted sensibly.
It is common on tour for players to lift and clean the ball and then fiddle around - shall i put it here, here or here - before finally settling on a spot. As long as this happens in one general movement we are ok with this.In practice the end of this process is often signaled by the player removing his tee and standing up - and that for the ref is the key - you need to decide when the process rather than a much narrower act has finished.
What the rule does not allow is for the player, having made a clear choice,to bend down again and put the ball back on the nice perch he had chosen if it should fall off or, return to the ball and make another choice.In our view he now has a clean ball and should now play.
ger147
Tour Winner
That's where I was coming from with scenario 1) as it seems a bit harsh to be penalised for momentarily letting go of the ball as you are in the process of placing it and perhaps lining up alignment marks or logos.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
well now you have it - for those of us 'ruling' at clubs it would obviously be helpful if this was incorporated into a decision at some point!!!
ger147
Tour Winner
You're spot on Duncan as what is clear is that it is still perfectly possible you could be penalised for doing what I outlined in Scenario 1 as no-one knows not to penalise you as this is neither part of the rules or covered in any decision I could find.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
But you are not getting penalised. By using winter rules 'placing' you are being provided with the opportunity to improve your lie. If on letting go of the ball it moves to a place less advantageous than you had hoped or indeed expected - then tough. You have still taken advantage of winter rules. You didn't have to - so you haven't been penalised.
I think it would be an unfair advantage to use winter rules placing if you were able to continually try to get your ball placed and stationary on a nice nearby grassy raised 'tee' - when all around wthin placing distance was much messier.
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ger147
Tour Winner
Please refer to the post above with the text from a European Referee - there is no definition in the rules of when the process of "placing" is complete and on tour, what I outlined in Scenario 1 would NOT be penalised.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I just pointing out that I don't think you should be allowed to place and replace and replace and replace...until you get your placing under winter rules 'just so' and to your maximum advantage - that is not I am sure what placing under winter rules is aimed at providing to the player - and our Ref quote confirms that. You are being given the opportunity of getting some relief from poor ground conditions - and that is it. And if you are not able to take as much advantage of placing as you might have liked - then tough. Play ball as it then lies as you would have if winter rules had not been in operation.
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ger147
Tour Winner
That would be my scenario 2 from my post further up the chain which is against the rules and I have no problem with that.
