Pre-shot digging... allowed or not?

[atticusfinch]

To me the more important thing has not been discussed. That is the drafting doctrine that the specific rule takes precedence over the general. In this case, rule 8-2a addresses marking the line so it is specific to that issue, where 1-2 concerns any means of aiding the play of the hole and therefore is general as to that issue.

 

[freddielong]

8-2 - Indicating Line of Play

a. Other Than on Putting Green
Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one may be positioned by the player on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being made. Any mark placed by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line must be removed before the stroke is made.
Exception: Flagstick attended or held up – see Rule 17-1.

b. On the Putting Green
When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

 

[backwoodsman]

To me it is the word placed. You cannot place a dent in the ground. It is not an object that can be put down.

The player who makes a dent in the ground in order to give him a line to is affecting his play of the hole by helping him to aim at his target and to make a more effective shot.

I realise 8.2 uses the word "place" but in equity "placing a mark" and "making a mark" are effectively the same thing and therefore IMHO both prohibited by the same rule. Given that making a mark is permanent, deliberate damage of the course, one would expect the rules to "frown upon it" more so than just "placing"?

 

[Colin L]

To me the more important thing has not been discussed. That is the drafting doctrine that the specific rule takes precedence over the general. In this case, rule 8-2a addresses marking the line so it is specific to that issue, where 1-2 concerns any means of aiding the play of the hole and therefore is general as to that issue.

If, however, the Rule you have in mind as being specific to an issue does not actually deal with what has happened, it can't be the applicable Rule. 8-2a deals only with marking a line by placing something not by digging holes in the turf.

If you can describe convincingly how to place a dent in the ground and then remove it, I might be persuaded that 8-2a actually deals with the actions of the player in the OP's description and could be the applicable Rule.

 

[Colin L]

I realise 8.2 uses the word "place" but in equity "placing a mark" and "making a mark" are effectively the same thing and therefore IMHO both prohibited by the same rule. Given that making a mark is permanent, deliberate damage of the course, one would expect the rules to "frown upon it" more so than just "placing"?

Equity only comes into it when there isn't an applicable Rule. The argument here is about which of two Rules is the applicable one. Words in the Rules are used very deliberately and we cannot just say that placing and making a mark are effectively the same thing. They are not. By placing a mark you are putting something down on the ground; by making a mark you are doing something to alter the ground - making a hole, scraping it, heaping up some earth etc. That's what the words say. Placing a mark on the ground is dealt with in 8-2a; altering the ground is in 1-2.

 

[atticusfinch]

8-2a deals only with marking a line by placing something not by digging holes in the turf.

Do you have any authority for that statement?

 

[rulefan]

Colin

I think you will find that (if nothing else), historically, case law tells us 8-2a is the applicable rule.

 

[atticusfinch]

If a player who makes an indentation in the surface to indicate his line is not "placing a mark", what is he doing?

 

[Colin L]

Colin

I think you will find that (if nothing else), historically, case law tells us 8-2a is the applicable rule.

Aw, don't go and spoil a good argument Anyway, The Decisions are our case law. Am I missing one?

And where is Duncan? He started this and I need help!

If a player who makes an indentation in the surface to indicate his line is not "placing a mark", what is he doing?

He is making a mark. Making and placing are different words with different meanings.

Do you have any authority for that statement?

Just the words. Just the words.

 

[vkurup]

If a player who makes an indentation in the surface to indicate his line is not "placing a mark", what is he doing?

Is the 'placing v/s making' debate all about placing being the 'letter of the law' whereas making goes against the 'spirit of the law' and therefore both are to be avoided..

 

[Colin L]

Is the 'placing v/s making' debate all about placing being the 'letter of the law' whereas making goes against the 'spirit of the law' and therefore both are to be avoided..

There is no question but that the player who makes the dent to help him line up his shot is breaching the Rules and incurs a 2 stroke penalty. None of this academic argument about which of two rules he is breaching makes any difference to that - sorry if it is creating any confusion. What he is doing is just plain wrong.

 

[Foxholer]

There is no question but that the player who makes the dent to help him line up his shot is breaching the Rules and incurs a 2 stroke penalty. None of this academic argument about which of two rules he is breaching makes any difference to that - sorry if it is creating any confusion. What he is doing is just plain wrong.

Colin. Unless you can actually point out the actual rule that he is breaching, you cannot say he is breaching a rule! It comes down to the old 'show me the rule' challenge!

Surely 14-3a is enough!

 

[duncan mackie]

And where is Duncan? He started this and I need help!

I went fishing

I agree with Atticus, 8-2 (a) is specific and capable of covering it. If the player starts arguing that it doesn't cover it then he would leave himself open to 1-2 which definitely does!

 

[atticusfinch]

If, however, the Rule you have in mind as being specific to an issue does not actually deal with what has happened, it can't be the applicable Rule.

So it would be a case for equity, then?

 

[atticusfinch]

14-3a?

 

[Colin L]

I went fishing

I agree with Atticus, 8-2 (a) is specific and capable of covering it. If the player starts arguing that it doesn't cover it then he would leave himself open to 1-2 which definitely does!

So what happened to Post #10 ? Is that what fishing does?

What can a man do when he is outnumbered and at a stroke left abandoned by the very chap he weighed in to support? Shall I remain stubborn and say the words do not allow that but nonetheless give in gracefully? Or go and sulk in a corner and chew my comfort blanket?

Last grumble. Nobody as yet has told me how you can place a dent in the ground.

 

[backwoodsman]

So what happened to Post #10 ? Is that what fishing does?

What can a man do when he is outnumbered and at a stroke left abandoned by the very chap he weighed in to support? Shall I remain stubborn and say the words do not allow that but nonetheless give in gracefully? Or go and sulk in a corner and chew my comfort blanket?

Last grumble. Nobody as yet has told me how you can place a dent in the ground.

Would a dictionary definition do it for you? Amongst other definitions we have "Place: cause to be in a particular situation" (Oxford Dictionaries). I think bashing a hole in the ground has caused it to be in a particular situation?

Ps: I also realise 8.2 says "mark" not "dent" but the dictionary also has that covered

 

[MashieNiblick]

Interesting discussion. Is it just a case of whether 1-2 or 8-2 is the applicable rule? It's the same penalty is it not?

I'm in the camp that making a mark is to all intents and purposes the same as placing a mark and would be surprised if 8-2(a) was written with the intention of excluding "making" a mark from the operation of that rule other than on the basis that such an action would be covered under 1-2 and therefore 8-2(a) is written to compliment rather than duplicate 1-2. I can see the logic of that.

To use an example, if I put a tee peg in the ground to indicate the line then remove it before playing, but the hole it made is still visible and I then use this to line up with, which rule have I broken?

Is it worth anyone with contacts at the R&A e-mailing them for a view?

 

[duncan mackie]

To use an example, if I put a tee peg in the ground to indicate the line then remove it before playing, but the hole it made is still visible and I then use this to line up with, which rule have I broken?

8-2

I think 8-2a/3 is the most useful information on the matter, and makes it very clear what the intention of 8-2 is, and how far reaching.

 

[vkurup]

Interesting discussion. Is it just a case of whether 1-2 or 8-2 is the applicable rule? It's the same penalty is it not?

I'm in the camp that making a mark is to all intents and purposes the same as placing a mark and would be surprised if 8-2(a) was written with the intention of excluding "making" a mark from the operation of that rule other than on the basis that such an action would be covered under 1-2 and therefore 8-2(a) is written to compliment rather than duplicate 1-2. I can see the logic of that.

To use an example, if I put a tee peg in the ground to indicate the line then remove it before playing, but the hole it made is still visible and I then use this to line up with, which rule have I broken?

Is it worth anyone with contacts at the R&A e-mailing them for a view?

:rant: Is this the reason why Golf is so complex and difficult for a newbie? To the best of my knowledge cricket, badminton or footy has clearly laid down rules that are not open to interpretation. (Ok, the offside rule may be, but still)