Potentially changing 4BBB Open Competitions- Any thoughts on alternate system?

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3offTheTee

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We received the attached this week from our Club. My own initial thought was it would be difficult to change. Anybody any idea whether they can and what would be an equitable way if anything is required?

The introduction of WHS in 2021 has gone without significant issues, the men’s closed to club competitions continue to see a bias towards Category 3 players winning, a trend very similar to the old handicapping system. This was also particularly noticeable when the clubs 4BBB Opens were held in 2021 which we will review the 2021 opens and MAY introduce a category system to 4BBB events or alternate system to encourage lower handicapper golfers to participate, the aim is to ENSURE fairness.
 

rulefan

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Unspecified cat 3 winners are always more likely to win open 4BBBs as they usually dominate the number of entries.
 

Wildboy370

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One simple way is to have both scores entered on the card everytime and then entered into the WHS system and used for handicap purposes, this would stop the stream of bandits getting ridiculous scores week in week out. You would stop overnight these people and have a far fairer result. Played a 4bbb comp In summer top five were all 20 handicap or worse and fifth place had 49 points, winners 52. Me and partner off 9 had 40 points and thought we had played exceptionally well.
 
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3offTheTee

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What I am more interested in is can out Club introduce a category system, not sure what that means, to encourge lower handicp players to enter. Is that allowed?

Realise comps re being won by higher handicaps but could the Club say 75% of Course Handicap rather than 85?
 

2blue

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What I am more interested in is can out Club introduce a category system, not sure what that means, to encourge lower handicp players to enter. Is that allowed?

Realise comps re being won by higher handicaps but could the Club say 75% of Course Handicap rather than 85?
Surely your Comps are split into Divisions? I don't think the Software will allow such messing about with %'s
 

wjemather

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What I am more interested in is can out Club introduce a category system, not sure what that means, to encourge lower handicp players to enter. Is that allowed?

Realise comps re being won by higher handicaps but could the Club say 75% of Course Handicap rather than 85?
Yes, they can split the field into divisions (not categories - which is conflating terms with the old CONGU handicap system) based on handicap.

No, they cannot specify different Playing Handicap allowances than the ones specified by WHS - CONGU makes them mandatory within GB&I.
 

wjemather

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One simple way is to have both scores entered on the card everytime and then entered into the WHS system and used for handicap purposes, this would stop the stream of bandits getting ridiculous scores week in week out. You would stop overnight these people and have a far fairer result. Played a 4bbb comp In summer top five were all 20 handicap or worse and fifth place had 49 points, winners 52. Me and partner off 9 had 40 points and thought we had played exceptionally well.
Ireland have been trialling accepting some 4BBB scores, so it maybe something we see in the not too distant future; but it will be by way of Most Likely Score, not by making every player hole out on every hole - 4BBB is slow enough already.

Incidentally, it's not how well you play, it how well you score that counts - 50 points maybe quite high, but realistically (unless the Course Rating is exceptionally high relative to par) 40 points is never going to be close in a 4BBB comp.
 
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One simple way is to have both scores entered on the card everytime and then entered into the WHS system and used for handicap purposes, this would stop the stream of bandits getting ridiculous scores week in week out. You would stop overnight these people and have a far fairer result. Played a 4bbb comp In summer top five were all 20 handicap or worse and fifth place had 49 points, winners 52. Me and partner off 9 had 40 points and thought we had played exceptionally well.
As implied above, your 40 points didn't indicate exceptionally good play! There is, to my mind, a fair amount of luck in four ball. Fortuitous synchronicity is the key. You don't both blow up on the same holes: you each match the other's poor score at a hole with a good one. But some good management can help too - like one of you securing a net par so that the other can have a go at holing a putt for a net birdie. But success at that depends too on having a lucky day with that kind of have-a-go putt.

Much of my social golf comprises four ball matches. It's a great format.
 
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Surely your Comps are split into Divisions? I don't think the Software will allow such messing about with %'s
Yes for individual club comps. I was specifically referring to Open Comps as there are few entrants from low handicap golfers as they feel there is little/no opportunity of winning
 

jim8flog

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For Opens we have two categories
Home Players and Away Players

There are no categories under the WHS but clubs can set their own divisions.

Pre WHS the winning scores in 4BBB was around 10-14 under nett. This has not changed much with the WHS and certainly in the home player category we have not seen a tendency to higher handicaps being the winners.
 

Swango1980

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Interesting what the perception is by regular golfers / some Committees, and what the mathematicians tell us. The fact that the Committee are doing this to "Ensure fairness" indicates that it is unfair to have handicappers of different abilities competing against each other. Ironically, the very thing that handicaps are meant to make fair. Anytime a competition is set up in Divisions, that immediately suggests that the competition committee believe that low and high handicappers cannot fairly compete against each other within the same field.

Compared to pre WHS, player handicaps have generally increased by an amount equivalent to the Slope. In other words, very low handicappers have gained nothing / little, high handicappers several shots. Therefore, higher handicappers are generally getting 1-3 shots more than they used to in contrast to very low handicappers. I note, this is the general trend, individual golfers may still go against that trend. So, I would not be surprised if more and more clubs start to split competitions into divisions, because it seems there is more reason to do it under WHS than pre WHS.
 

Swango1980

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Unspecified cat 3 winners are always more likely to win open 4BBBs as they usually dominate the number of entries.
It seems that this particular club gets the impression lower handicap players are specifically not entering. Now, I don't know whether this is from the opinion of one low handicapper, or the opinion of several, but something has pushed the committee to do this, rightly or wrongly.

Not sure what a category system would look like in the case of 4BBB.
 
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It seems that this particular club gets the impression lower handicap players are specifically not entering. Now, I don't know whether this is from the opinion of one low handicapper, or the opinion of several, but something has pushed the committee to do this, rightly or wrongly.

Not sure what a category system would look like in the case of 4BBB.
It would be interesting to see the distribution of the handicaps of participants, ie, how many players in <5 hdcp, 6-10 hdcp etc. It may well point out that there are many more participants in the "higher" categories and, if that is the case, there is a higher probability that the winners will come from those categories.
I think this is what rulefan was suggesting earlier.
 

Lord Tyrion

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Yes for individual club comps. I was specifically referring to Open Comps as there are few entrants from low handicap golfers as they feel there is little/no opportunity of winning
If it's your Open then surely you can set the criteria how you like. In the way that some clubs are stating that participants must be members of a club, not just have a handicap. Presumably they will do it by having lower percentage of your handicap counting? 75%, 60% etc., as per your own suggestion. That looks like the easiest way.

The question then arises, will cat 3 and above still enter and if not will the other levels make up the shortfall? You may gain lower handicap winners but make less money on your Opens. It depends what the aim is for your Opens?
 

wjemather

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If it's your Open then surely you can set the criteria how you like. In the way that some clubs are stating that participants must be members of a club, not just have a handicap. Presumably they will do it by having lower percentage of your handicap counting? 75%, 60% etc., as per your own suggestion. That looks like the easiest way.
Doing this would potentially create a whole different set of problems for the club, not least since CONGU guidance makes WHS allowances mandatory in GB&I.
 

Lord Tyrion

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Doing this would potentially create a whole different set of problems for the club, not least since CONGU guidance makes WHS allowances mandatory in GB&I.
It doesn't sound like guidance if it is mandatory 🤔. I thought Opens, 4BBB, were run in a way that is up to the club putting them on? They are not official qualifiers after all.
 
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If it's your Open then surely you can set the criteria how you like. In the way that some clubs are stating that participants must be members of a club, not just have a handicap. Presumably they will do it by having lower percentage of your handicap counting? 75%, 60% etc., as per your own suggestion. That looks like the easiest way.

The question then arises, will cat 3 and above still enter and if not will the other levels make up the shortfall? You may gain lower handicap winners but make less money on your Opens. It depends what the aim is for your Opens?
I am not on The Committee so no idea but I should expect they want to maximise revenue, by having a full field. Competitors have a great day enjoying the course and food and rebooking for the following year. The prize fund is incidental for the majority. There is somebenefit to the lower handicapper playing off 10 CH 9 shots 4BBB compared to a 25 CH who will receive 20 shots but not enough I understand.


I play in many singles, not a long hitter, in fact very short, and the difference in Course length for Individual compared to Senior’s can be 400 metres. Played Fairmont St Andrews in a singles earlier this year and @6600 yards it was extremely long. Whilst not having any figures I expect The Senior 4 BBB are won generally by higher handicappers as opposed to non Senior 4BBB which could be won by lower handicaps. Also realise 4BBB is more prevalent in England than N. of The Border.
 

Swango1980

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It would be interesting to see the distribution of the handicaps of participants, ie, how many players in <5 hdcp, 6-10 hdcp etc. It may well point out that there are many more participants in the "higher" categories and, if that is the case, there is a higher probability that the winners will come from those categories.
I think this is what rulefan was suggesting earlier.
Yes, I agree that is what rulefan was saying. And yes, I've no doubt category 3 golfers would make up a higher percentage of club members, so would expect them to win a higher percentage of comps.

As you said, the proportion of winners with proportion of the field is important.

However, it is disappointing if any members, even if it is only a few, do not enter comps if they feel they cannot compete with higher handicappers. Perception is important to a point.

It would be interesting to know how many golfers genuinely do not play comps because they feel higher handicappers have a significant advantage, and compare that to higher handicappers who do not play in comps because they feel lower handicappers have an unfair advantage.

I reckon divisions are the way forward. Perhaps some big clubs would even have enough members so that the handicap range in each division is quite small, and they could then make it interesting and make each division a scratch competition in it's own right :)
 

wjemather

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It doesn't sound like guidance if it is mandatory 🤔. I thought Opens, 4BBB, were run in a way that is up to the club putting them on? They are not official qualifiers after all.
Whether such rounds count for handicapping is of no relevance. Union affiliated clubs agree to adhere to the rules and guidance given to them.
The guidance provided by the home unions in relation to concerns that low handicappers cannot compete with higher handicappers who are having an exceptional scoring day is to create handicap divisions.
Unjustifiably and unfairly seeking to prevent higher handicappers from competing on a level playing field is not the way forward.
 
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