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Politics/life too complex for Joe Public?

Foxholer said:
Er....Rubbish!

Well, not all of it, but certainly most of it!

Taxation (or tax mitigation) is actually a 'market' that countries compete for! It's something where very large multi-national companies actually have more power than many governments - and some are quite prepared (even obliged!) to actively wield that power! Whether that's a good thing or not is irrelevant - it's simply a statement of the real world!
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I can't quite seem to fathom why it is 'irrelevant' that global companies exercise their understanding of tax loop holes to pay less than they should. And I am amazed that people don't seem to have a problem with this. If an individual does it, they are vilified for avoiding tax. If a company does it, they are commended for being smart. Incredible.
 
londonlewis said:
You think that everything that is legal is right? Unbelievable Jeff. I seriously hope you are joking. But I seriously doubt you are.
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Yes, that's correct, if it's legal it's OK. If we dont live by that rule then what do we do, make it up to suit ourselves? You are suffering from this populism going around that Business is evil and we would be better off without it, have you been listening to Corbyn? I have explained to you the massive tax companies like Shell pay to the exchequer and the large number of jobs where tax and NI is generated. Business is what creates wealth in the country, without it we would be impoverished. Try thinking this through rather than making posts like the one above.
 
londonlewis said:
I can't quite seem to fathom why it is 'irrelevant' that global companies exercise their understanding of tax loop holes to pay less than they should. And I am amazed that people don't seem to have a problem with this. If an individual does it, they are vilified for avoiding tax. If a company does it, they are commended for being smart. Incredible.
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I doubt if you want to pay more tax than you have to. There is a big difference between avoiding tax and evading tax.
 
SocketRocket said:
Yes, that's correct, if it's legal it's OK. If we dont live by that rule then what do we do, make it up to suit ourselves? You are suffering from this populism going around that Business is evil and we would be better off without it, have you been listening to Corbyn? I have explained to you the massive tax companies like Shell pay to the exchequer and the large number of jobs where tax and NI is generated. Business is what creates wealth in the country, without it we would be impoverished. Try thinking this through rather than making posts like the one above.
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So all laws are good laws? Does that past laws that have now been changed or removed? i.e. they were right at the time but no longer relevant to today's society? So it was ok to own slaves? It was ok for it to be illegal to be gay? It was ok that same sex marriage was outlawed? Child labour was ok? Drug laws are absolutely ok, nothing wrong with any of them? The list is huge.

I am actually not suffering from this populism that business is evil and we would be better of without it at all. You are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that the systems currently put in place are not fair and are only in the interest of the few at the expense of the many.

I have thought all of this through. I seriously doubt you have.
 
londonlewis said:
So all laws are good laws? Does that past laws that have now been changed or removed? i.e. they were right at the time but no longer relevant to today's society? So it was ok to own slaves? It was ok for it to be illegal to be gay? It was ok that same sex marriage was outlawed? Child labour was ok? Drug laws are absolutely ok, nothing wrong with any of them? The list is huge.

I am actually not suffering from this populism that business is evil and we would be better of without it at all. You are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that the systems currently put in place are not fair and are only in the interest of the few at the expense of the many.

I have thought all of this through. I seriously doubt you have.
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Agree with these sentiments 100%.

The wealthy and powerful are able to control government and the media to ensure that the rules continue to benefit themselves. Hence we end up (and continue with) the current situation.

The idea that the law and it's interpretation is somehow some perfect and unquestionable sacred text has been used by the few against the many before I think...
 
pendodave said:
Agree with these sentiments 100%.

The wealthy and powerful are able to control government and the media to ensure that the rules continue to benefit themselves. Hence we end up (and continue with) the current situation.

The idea that the law and it's interpretation is somehow some perfect and unquestionable sacred text has been used by the few against the many before I think...
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Continue with your social prejudices if you wish. The world is not perfect but the Law of the land is all we have to form our society around. If you dont like it then do something other than moan on a Golf Forum.
 
londonlewis said:
I can't quite seem to fathom why it is 'irrelevant' that global companies exercise their understanding of tax loop holes to pay less than they should. And I am amazed that people don't seem to have a problem with this. If an individual does it, they are vilified for avoiding tax. If a company does it, they are commended for being smart. Incredible.
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I have no problem with any company or individual avoiding tax. However, that's very different to evading tax. One is legal whilst one isn't.

If a company doesn't use the system to avoid tax the company board are liable to the shareholders for mismanagement. Bearing in mind just about everyone's private pension fund is invested in blue chip companies, everyone has a vested interest in a company maximising its profits.

Its up to the government to create a robust taxation system. If you want to criticise anyone for tax avoidance, not evasion, criticise the government.
 
Hobbit said:
I have no problem with any company or individual avoiding tax. However, that's very different to evading tax. One is legal whilst one isn't.

If a company doesn't use the system to avoid tax the company board are liable to the shareholders for mismanagement. Bearing in mind just about everyone's private pension fund is invested in blue chip companies, everyone has a vested interest in a company maximising its profits.

Its up to the government to create a robust taxation system. If you want to criticise anyone for tax avoidance, not evasion, criticise the government.
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But that's what is wrong with the whole system. Countries are competing with each other to be the most attractive tax haven. It's a race to the bottom. Companies have too much power and they lean on governments, they do this globally. You can't tell me that global corporations are acting in the interest of the common man.

Purely looking at shareholder value is a serious problem in society. It's short term and promotes incredibly bad behaviour.
 
londonlewis said:
What options does the common man have in affecting real change in the political system?
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You have a rather low opinion of yourself. If you are passionate enough then get into politics and work at changing the law if you think it's wrong. Otherwise you could try to understand the way the economy works so you may be able to form a more balanced view. Or just stay as you are and complain on a Golf Forum.
 
londonlewis said:
But that's what is wrong with the whole system. Countries are competing with each other to be the most attractive tax haven. It's a race to the bottom. Companies have too much power and they lean on governments, they do this globally. You can't tell me that global corporations are acting in the interest of the common man.

Purely looking at shareholder value is a serious problem in society. It's short term and promotes incredibly bad behaviour.
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Someone has already explained to you that Company Directors have a duty to the shareholders to maximise profit within the legal framework. It's not short term and it's not bad behavior, it's what creates national wealth and puts people in jobs. What's the alternative, Borrowing more?
 
SocketRocket said:
You have a rather low opinion of yourself. If you are passionate enough then get into politics and work at changing the law if you think it's wrong. Otherwise you could try to understand the way the economy works so you may be able to form a more balanced view. Or just stay as you are and complain on a Golf Forum.
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How ridiculous.
 
SocketRocket said:
Someone has already explained to you that Company Directors have a duty to the shareholders to maximise profit within the legal framework. It's not short term and it's not bad behavior, it's what creates national wealth and puts people in jobs. What's the alternative, Borrowing more?
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Good grief.
I am almost lost for words now SocketRocket. I am confident that you really don't have a clue what is really going on, how things really work and how most of the things you say are common opinion but not really true.

I would also take a wild stab in the dark that you haven't read a single book on any of these topics and are just regurgitating things from the last 50 years.
 
SocketRocket said:
Someone has already explained to you that Company Directors have a duty to the shareholders to maximise profit within the legal framework. It's not short term and it's not bad behavior, it's what creates national wealth and puts people in jobs. What's the alternative, Borrowing more?
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Not quite!

While it all has to be within a 'legal framework', the Company can (and in more and more cases does) specify policies that, will not maximise profit because it is committed to certain policies like the use of greener materials/processes!

Shareholders, of course, should be aware that such policies exist and are being pursued! In many cases, that's actually why shareholders invest in that company, as opposed to other ones with less earth-friendly policies!

Btw. I believe you are 'flogging a dead horse' debating the subject with LL!
 
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Foxholer said:
Not quite!

While it all has to be within a 'legal framework', the Company can (and in more and more cases does) specify policies that, will not maximise profit because it is committed to certain policies like the use of greener materials/processes!

Shareholders, of course, should be aware that such policies exist and are being pursued! In many cases, that's actually why shareholders invest in that company, as opposed to other ones with less earth-friendly policies!

Btw. I believe you are 'flogging a dead horse' debating the subject with LL!
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Very kind of you to single me out Fh.
 
londonlewis said:
Good grief.
I am almost lost for words now SocketRocket. I am confident that you really don't have a clue what is really going on, how things really work and how most of the things you say are common opinion but not really true.

I would also take a wild stab in the dark that you haven't read a single book on any of these topics and are just regurgitating things from the last 50 years.
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OK then if you are going to call me out. I am a retired Chief Executive Officer (MD) of a very successful Software company with many International offices that developed and sold Software Engineering solutions to many leading manufacturers throughout the World. I have a Degree in Production Engineering and an MBA from the OU, I am also a Member of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers and a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Management. So your wild stab in the dark is a little off course. I have read more books on the subject than I can remember. Still lost for words?
 
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