Plugged ball

[rulefan]

20-7 says
if a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule.

Note 3: If a player incurs a penalty for making a stroke from a wrong place, there is no additional penalty for:
(d) a ball being put into play by a person not permitted to do so under the Rules.

 

[doublebogey7]

20-7 says
if a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule.

Note 3: If a player incurs a penalty for making a stroke from a wrong place, there is no additional penalty for:
(d) a ball being put into play by a person not permitted to do so under the Rules.

Firstly, the partner dropping the ball, rather than the player himself, does not meet the criteria for a wrong place as described in Rule 20-7.

Secondly if such action did meet the criteria for a wrong place there would not be a need for Rule 20-2 to specify a penalty of one stroke as the penalty for playing from a wrong place would always override.

 

[dudley.williams]

Hi, guys.....................thanks for all your input. Our club eventually went to the R&A for answer. This is what they got back -

When your partner picked the ball up, normally a player must always mark the ball before picking up, but because it was plugged, the plug hole counts as the mark, therefore no penalty incurred at that stage, but your partner should not have dropped the ball. He should have passed the ball to you, and you should have dropped it, but because, as I understand it, that didn’t happen, you incurred a 1 shot penalty.
Play continues as normal with you adding the 1 shot to your score for that hole.
The other decision to be made is, if you played the ball dropped by your partner, was it dropped closer to the hole than where it originally finished?
The opposition have indicated that your partner dropped the ball by making an underarm motion (which is the incorrect way of dropping) which implies the ball could have finished in front of the plug mark, and if you then played the ball from a position closer to the hole, you incur a penalty for playing the ball nearer to the hole than its original position – loss of hole.

 

[guest100718]

was loss of hole was a fair result then?

 

[doublebogey7]

The other decision to be made is, if you played the ball dropped by your partner, was it dropped closer to the hole than where it originally finished?
The opposition have indicated that your partner dropped the ball by making an underarm motion (which is the incorrect way of dropping) which implies the ball could have finished in front of the plug mark, and if you then played the ball from a position closer to the hole, you incur a penalty for playing the ball nearer to the hole than its original position – loss of hole.

[/B]

You didn't include these "facts" in your original post and it is not clear whether or not you agree that that this is actually what occured.

 

[BTatHome]

All a bit confusing with the extra info now ... plus your first post said the final decision was made, so has a final decision actually been made or not?
Did your partner half the hole (according to what you said, it's hard to understand what he actually scored) ... surely the 'loss of hole' comments are only for the one ball in this betterball match?

 

[woody69]

Interesting to learn that the plug itself can be taken as the marker. Learn something new every day.

Underarm throw of the ball though is an interesting one! I have a vision of your partner going, "oh no it's not my ball, quick throw it away!!"

 

[doublebogey7]

Interesting to learn that the plug itself can be taken as the marker. Learn something new every day.

Interesting reply from the R&A. FAQ 2 here http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=20&subRuleNum=1, clearly states that a ball lifted from an abnormal ground condition does not have to be marked.

Additionally decision 21-1/19, says "reference to an existing mark on the ground does not constitute marking the position of a ball".

Are we sure the "reply" has come from the R&A.

 

[Foxholer]

Interesting reply from the R&A. FAQ 2 here http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=20&subRuleNum=1, clearly states that a ball lifted from an abnormal ground condition does not have to be marked.

A Plugged ball is not an 'Abnormal Ground Condition' per se!

Btw. I think your reference re marking is wrong - 20-1/16? I'm not particularly surprised that the plug-mark can be used as, though wouldn't be/have been if it wasn't allowed. The purpose is to identify the exact spot (which the plug mark certainly does 'physically mark the position of the ball'!) and the example of one that is not allowed - reference to a blemish - does not guarantee that!

 

[6Aces]

On arriving at our balls, my partner incorrectly identified my ball as his and as it was 'plugged' proceeded to lift it (on agreement). After discovering this he dropped it. When asked for a ruling, no one in the group had an answer, so we agreed to play my ball as it lay until we could get a ruling post-match. I therefore played the ball as it lay and went on to win the hole and we eventually won the match (1 up).

It is my understanding that "getting a ruling later" is not part of match play UNLESS a claim has been made. Since no claim was made and since both sides agreed to play the ball as it lay, why would the result of the hole not stand as played, with no penalty incurred by anyone? See Decision 2-5/8.5 for an example of this.

 

[doublebogey7]

A Plugged ball is not an 'Abnormal Ground Condition' per se!

Btw. I think your reference re marking is wrong - 20-1/16? I'm not particularly surprised that the plug-mark can be used as, though wouldn't be/have been if it wasn't allowed. The purpose is to identify the exact spot (which the plug mark certainly does 'physically mark the position of the ball'!) and the example of one that is not allowed - reference to a blemish - does not guarantee that!

My apologies you are correct re plugged ball, but it is still the case that only a ball that is to be replaced needs to be marked before it is lifted. In the case of a plugged it has to be dropped to get it back in play so does not require.

I still maitain though that even when a ball is to be marked decision 20-1/16 makes it clear that the ball must be phsically marked.

 

[backwoodsman]

What I've not seen made clear in the thread yet, is whether it was permissible for the ball to be lifted (as asked by Colin in #9). OP has implied the ball wasn't being lifted to identify it (as it had already been identified - albeit incorrectly). It was being lifted because it was plugged. (?) But as Colin alludes, that would only be permissible if local rule was in place.

As regards 6aces comment about "no claim made". OP says "so we agreed to play my ball as it lay until we could get a ruling post-match" which in my opinion effectively indicates a claim as it indicates some disagreement (unless the big guns disagree)

 

[Colin L]

As regards 6aces comment about "no claim made". OP says "so we agreed to play my ball as it lay until we could get a ruling post-match" which in my opinion effectively indicates a claim as it indicates some disagreement (unless the big guns disagree)

Yes. I mentioned that in Post#9. To add to what I said, Rule 2-5 is entitled Doubt as to Procedure; Disputes and Claims. In this case, there is a doubt as to procedure and a referral to the Committee to adjudicate.