Picking up by mistake

[Dellboy]

Was playing in a freindly comp on Sunday, just 12 of us ( we play every other month )

Now on one green I did a lovely chip which ended up about 8inches from the hole, the chap I was playing against said " that's good" so I picked up, he then said he ment " that's a good chip" and wanted me to putt out.

I said not to worry and gave him the hole, I lost the game 3 & 2 but he said I could have just replaced the ball and played it from the same spot.

Is that right or was I right in the first place ?

Dellboy

 

[Colin L]

Both could be right!

If you pick up because your opponent makes a remark that can reasonably be taken to be a concession, you can, in equity, replace your ball without penalty. It sounds as if your opponent was acknowledging that what he said was ambiguous and could have been taken as a concession. "That's good" does sound to me reasonably like a concession and given that and your opponent's acceptance you could have replaced without penalty.

If, however, what your opponent says cannot reasonably be taken as a concession, you did not lose the hole simply by picking up. You could have replaced, but under a 1 stroke penalty.

Decision 2-4/3 covers it.

 

[chrisd]

Was playing in a freindly comp on Sunday, just 12 of us ( we play every other month )

Now on one green I did a lovely chip which ended up about 8inches from the hole, the chap I was playing against said " that's good" so I picked up, he then said he ment " that's a good chip" and wanted me to putt out.

I said not to worry and gave him the hole, I lost the game 3 & 2 but he said I could have just replaced the ball and played it from the same spot.

Is that right or was I right in the first place ?

Dellboy

So you chipped to 8" and he didn't concede the putt but made an ambiguous statement tricking you into picking up? He then accepted the winning of the hole even though he admitted knowing the rule said that you could freely replace the ball?

Does the guy really want to cheat to that extent to win? Does he have any friends?


Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm charming man!

 

[Dellboy]

Thanks for the replys, so I could have replayed the ball !! Got to say I didn't know that was the case, and in all fairness to him , he did say after the game, He thought I could have played the shot, I do honestly believe he wasn't sure himself. ( perhaps I didn't make that clear in my post, sorry)

Like I said I lost the game 3&2 and it should have been over long before that, but I still had a great day and a nice drink afterwards, so not all bad.

Cheers

Dellboy

 

[Ethan]

Thanks for the replys, so I could have replayed the ball !! Got to say I didn't know that was the case, and in all fairness to him , he did say after the game, He thought I could have played the shot, I do honestly believe he wasn't sure himself. ( perhaps I didn't make that clear in my post, sorry)

Like I said I lost the game 3&2 and it should have been over long before that, but I still had a great day and a nice drink afterwards, so not all bad.

Cheers

Dellboy

Sounds like this guy was taking the proverbial. Either he should have invited you to replace it at the time, with no penalty, or he should have confirmed he conceded the hole. Anything else over an 8 inch putt is gamesmanship.

'That's good' is a well accepted, if somewhat American, term for concession, so it is his problem if he said something that could be reasonably interpreted, in the circumstances of an 8 inch putt, as concession but didn't mean it. A concession, once given, cannot be withdrawn. If you had hit a 3 wood to 20 feet on a long par 4 or a par-5 and he said 'That's good', that would not reasonably be interpreted as a concession.

 

[Imurg]

So a misinterpreted statement is cheating now.....?

Ok the Guy should have said "well played" or " Cracking shot Gromit" or similar.
"That's good" is an accepted phrase for giving a putt but just because he said the wrong thing doesn't make him a cheat.
He did offer to let Delboy play out - and there's no necessity to give a putt from anywhere - even an inch.
He accepted the winning of the hole because Delboy didn't know that he could have replaced and putted out - Del effectively conceded the hole so to brand the Guy a cheat is a little over the top.
Uninformed, maybe, but then most of us are like that too.

 

[Oddsocks]

Just shows you need to be clear and precise on your terms used

That's good or that's good enough, not alot of difference but clears the grey area!

 

[Ethan]

So a misinterpreted statement is cheating now.....?

Ok the Guy should have said "well played" or " Cracking shot Gromit" or similar.
"That's good" is an accepted phrase for giving a putt but just because he said the wrong thing doesn't make him a cheat.
He did offer to let Delboy play out - and there's no necessity to give a putt from anywhere - even an inch.
He accepted the winning of the hole because Delboy didn't know that he could have replaced and putted out - Del effectively conceded the hole so to brand the Guy a cheat is a little over the top.
Uninformed, maybe, but then most of us are like that too.

That is a very generous interpretation. He conceded the hole by saying 'That's good'. It maters not whether he meant something else because his words were reasonably construed as a concession, and once granted (and acted upon) cannot be withdrawn and Del could not then conceded the hole even if he wanted to do so. It is ridiculous and a display of contempt to then offer your rattled opponent to put out from 8 inches.

The fact he accepted the hole proves the underlying intent to use gamesmanship and the fact he is an utter [insert choice of censored phrase]. If that had happened to me, he could take the rest of the match and shove it.

 

[chrisd]

That is a very generous interpretation. He conceded the hole by saying 'That's good'. It maters not whether he meant something else because his words were reasonably construed as a concession, and once granted (and acted upon) cannot be withdrawn and Del could not then conceded the hole even if he wanted to do so. It is ridiculous and a display of contempt to then offer your rattled opponent to put out from 8 inches.

The fact he accepted the hole proves the underlying intent to use gamesmanship and the fact he is an utter [insert choice of censored phrase]. If that had happened to me, he could take the rest of the match and shove it.

This is pretty much my stance too. I have heard of, but not experienced personally, players who do this sort of thing deliberately and, like Ethan, would tell them to shove it if I suspected that it was a deliberate tactic.

If I am uncertain about a concession I would generally ask "is this ok then" or similar before picking up but to me "that's good" only 8" from the hole would never be anything other than a concession as far as I'm concerned.

My suggestion of cheating was based on the willingness to penalise someone for what could be a misunderstanding but admitting that he knew the rule, that in those circumstances, the player could replace his ball without penalty and didn't insist that he followed that course of action.

 

[bladeplayer]

I totaly agree "thats good" to me that equals pick it up ..

When did he say to you to you could replace it & hole out ? at that time or after the match finished .. ?


P.s in a match its not your job to tell your opponent the rules he might have applied to save him a shot or a hole ,

on the flip side In THIS case of a clear misunderstanding of the interpetation of "thats good" it would have been the right thing to teel you your options

 

[Colin L]

...... He conceded the hole by saying 'That's good'. It maters not whether he meant something else because his words were reasonably construed as a concession, and once granted (and acted upon) cannot be withdrawn and Del could not then conceded the hole even if he wanted to do so. It is ridiculous and a display of contempt to then offer your rattled opponent to put out from 8 inches......

Not quite. He didn't concede the hole by saying "That's good" because it was not his intention to concede with these words. The expression is ambiguous and could equally just mean that's a good putt. As everyone seems to agree, it was, however, reasonable for Dellboy to have taken the words to mean a concession. In these circumstances, Decision 2-4/3 does not determine that there actually was a concession; it simply says that the situation should be restored without penalty to where it was before the misunderstanding ie Dellboy's ball sitting 8" from the hole. It is of course completely open for his opponent to confirm a concession at any point in this.

On a light note, anyone who has seen my short range putting of late would be perfectly right to make me putt from 8"

 

[jammag]

Interesting this has come up actually. Last night I was playing the R&A rules quiz on my iphone and the question appeared "You mistakenly pick up your ball after thinking you have won the hole. What is the ruling?

I answered loss of hole how ever it told me it was wrong and actually you replace the ball to the nearest spot that you remember and take a 1 shot penalty. I dont know how true this is as it came up with another ruling the other day that I thought was no way possible so I am not sure if there are many mistakes in it as the other day it said, if you mark your ball on the green and then replace the ball and the ball roles in the hole with no shot being played it is classed as holed from your previous shot, which I cant think for one minute that is correct.

 

[Colin L]

Interesting this has come up actually. Last night I was playing the R&A rules quiz on my iphone and the question appeared "You mistakenly pick up your ball after thinking you have won the hole. What is the ruling?
I answered loss of hole how ever it told me it was wrong and actually you replace the ball to the nearest spot that you remember and take a 1 shot penalty. I dont know how true this is as it came up with another ruling the other day that I thought was no way possible so I am not sure if there are many mistakes in it

It might be a good idea to assume that the R&A rules quizzes are correct. Picking up your ball on the green by mistake is simply a breach of Rule 18-2, moving your ball at rest. Penalty stroke and replace. See post #2 in this thread for an explanation of picking up in the belief your opponent had conceded.

the other day it said, if you mark your ball on the green and then replace the ball and the ball roles in the hole with no shot being played it is classed as holed from your previous shot, which I cant think for one minute that is correct.

Well, after your minute is up, start believing. It is, of course, entirely correct.

 

[chrisd]

if you mark your ball on the green and then replace the ball and the ball roles in the hole with no shot being played it is classed as holed from your previous shot, which I cant think for one minute that is correct.

So long as you had nothing to do with it moving, rather bizzarely, that is the case!

 

[Foxholer]

Sounds like this guy was taking the proverbial. Either he should have invited you to replace it at the time, with no penalty, or he should have confirmed he conceded the hole. Anything else over an 8 inch putt is gamesmanship.

'That's good' is a well accepted, if somewhat American, term for concession, so it is his problem if he said something that could be reasonably interpreted, in the circumstances of an 8 inch putt, as concession but didn't mean it. A concession, once given, cannot be withdrawn. If you had hit a 3 wood to 20 feet on a long par 4 or a par-5 and he said 'That's good', that would not reasonably be interpreted as a concession.

Wow!

So a misunderstanding in a 'friendly comp' in the 'usual group' suddenly becomes bordering on cheating?! Hardly!

I agree that it was reasonable to interpret the phrase as a concession, but when the opponent immediately corrects the interpretation, then it was never conceded and ball gets replaced to be holed-out.

The fact that neither knew what the ruling was was disappointing, but hardly a great surprise as situation was/is as a tad peculiar.

 

[Ethan]

Wow!

So a misunderstanding in a 'friendly comp' in the 'usual group' suddenly becomes bordering on cheating?! Hardly!

I agree that it was reasonable to interpret the phrase as a concession, but when the opponent immediately corrects the interpretation, then it was never conceded and ball gets replaced to be holed-out.

The fact that neither knew what the ruling was was disappointing, but hardly a great surprise as situation was/is as a tad peculiar.

The debate is about the general issue, and presumably comes up in serious matches too. I hadn't spotted it was a 'friendly' comp - perhaps I unconsciously assumed that a match in which 8 inch putts are not given seems to lack a certain friendliness.

The verdict swings on whether this was a mistaken belief that the putt was conceded. It could also be gamesmanship, trying to confuse the opponent. It could also be argued that this was an attempt at withdrawal of concession, which is not allowed.

Decision 2-4/13 covers withdrawal of implied concession, which is not allowed.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

You have to be careful what you say sometimes.

In a matchplay round an opponent chipped to about three feet. He was just off my line of putt and made to mark his ball. I said it's allright that's OK. Slightly surprised look on his face he picked his ball up.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't think I've ever greeted an opponents good putt with the words 'that's good'. Good putt is what I always say. Likewise I can't recall anyone I play with saying to another player 'that's good' when they mean good putt.

That said it might depend on the inflection put of the words. Imagine saying 'thats good' with a rising inflection - then say it with an even, slightly falling inflection on the good. The rising inflection is clearly recognition of a good shot but in the context of a putt - not IMO a concession. The latter with the even, falling inflection does sound like a concession.

Ah - precision in words, inflection and context can be contentious (refer John Terry about that)

 

[Ethan]

I don't think I've ever greeted an opponents good putt with the words 'that's good'. Good putt is what I always say. Likewise I can't recall anyone I play with saying to another player 'that's good' when they mean good putt.

That said it might depend on the inflection put of the words. Imagine saying 'thats good' with a rising inflection - then say it with an even, slightly falling inflection on the good. The rising inflection is clearly recognition of a good shot but in the context of a putt - not IMO a concession. The latter with the even, falling inflection does sound like a concession.

Ah - precision in words, inflection and context can be contentious (refer John Terry about that)

'That's good' is the standard Americanism for a concession. It is an odd and very unusual use of language to compliment a good shot, though, so I have trouble swallowing the notion this was a mistaken concession.

 

[Fish]

Just slightly aside, what hole was it on? If it was after a few holes what expression did he use then to conceded or congratulate you on a shot and if its someone you have played with before, what does he usually say?

Sounded like very poor gamesmanship & mind games to me.