PH calculation for 3 hole play-off

[twrmgoat]

We use a three hole play-off for some of our comps (medal, net) to resolve a tie. ToC says (amongst other things) "there will be a 3 hole playoff over holes 1,2 & 3, with 1/6 Playing Handicap allowance".

Question is - is that PH then rounded? So does a 5 handicapper receive 1 shot or 0.8? I had always assumed would be rounded but this is being challenged. Would seem fairer to me if say 17 and 18 handicappers both received 3 shots rather than have the 18 handicapper win in the event of same gross scores. Appreciate that the Committee could probably define either way but what would be considered normal? (Note that for most comps we resolve ties by countback, using stroke indexes not fractional approach)

Only guidance I can find is this in R&A Committee procedures:

• "In the regular form of stroke play, if a play-off for a handicap competition is over fewer than 18 holes, the number of holes played should be used to determine the number of strokes to be deducted. For example, if a play-off is over one hole, one-eighteenth of the handicaps should be deducted from the scores for the play-off hole. Handicap stroke fractions should be applied in accordance with the rules or recommendations contained within the World Handicap System publications or other guidance as provided by the handicapping body in the local jurisdiction."

Which isn't all that helpful. I cant find anything in EG guidance which covers the situation.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Playoffs for HC events ?

Only seen them in scratch events

I guess would be a struggle to find guidance as most use CB to determine winners through tees in HC events

But I think you don’t round the HCs and use fractions to determine the winner

So the 5 HC would get .8 shots

 

[3 jabber]

Wowza, talk about making things complicated. Surely an easier method is just to take your normal 18 hole shot allowances and see which of the playoff holes you get shots on? Bit like matchplay going to extra holes.

 

[wjemather]

Wowza, talk about making things complicated. Surely an easier method is just to take your normal 18 hole shot allowances and see which of the playoff holes you get shots on? Bit like matchplay going to extra holes.

That may be easier to work out, but it wouldn't be fair (see below), and couldn't be applied to regular stroke play (medal) as you don't get shots on any holes (playing handicaps are subtracted from the total gross score).

SIs should be allocated with consideration to extra holes in match play, so stroke allocation should be fair for matches going extra holes playing them in order from the 1st.
Stroke play playoffs over a set number of holes are commonly not held over consecutive holes from the 1st as they use holes that are convenient for looping back towards the clubhouse (e.g. we play 1, 17 & 18). As such, allocating strokes from the full 18h PH per the SIs could result in no strokes being received by a mid-high handicappers. For example (theoretical and deliberately extreme), a 4-hole playoff held over SI 15, 16, 17, 18 between a scratch golfer and a 14 handicapper would mean neither receiving strokes, when the 14-handicapper would need 3 strokes for it to be fair.

 

[3 jabber]

That may be easier to work out, but it wouldn't be fair (see below), and couldn't be applied to regular stroke play (medal) as you don't get shots on any holes (playing handicaps are subtracted from the total gross score).

SIs should be allocated with consideration to extra holes in match play, so stroke allocation should be fair for matches going extra holes playing them in order from the 1st.
Stroke play playoffs over a set number of holes are commonly not held over consecutive holes from the 1st as they use holes that are convenient for looping back towards the clubhouse (e.g. we play 1, 17 & 18). As such, allocating strokes from the full 18h PH per the SIs could result in no strokes being received by a mid-high handicappers. For example (theoretical and deliberately extreme), a 4-hole playoff held over SI 15, 16, 17, 18 between a scratch golfer and a 14 handicapper would mean neither receiving strokes, when the 14-handicapper would need 3 strokes for it to be fair.

Fair enough, makes sense. I prefer what Arthur said, why have playoffs in handicap events instead of countback

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Fair enough, makes sense. I prefer what Arthur said, why have playoffs in handicap events instead of countback

Think playoffs for HC events are a bit silly

 

[wjemather]

Fair enough, makes sense. I prefer what Arthur said, why have playoffs in handicap events instead of countback

Playoffs are preferred as a much more satisfactory way of breaking ties but they are uncommon in handicap events due to the likely lack of availability of the players concerned when there could be several hours between finishing times.

 

[Neilds]

Why not use countback for ties?

 

[wjemather]

Why not use countback for ties?

Countback isn't always successful in breaking ties.

 

[Neilds]

Countback isn't always successful in breaking ties.

Very much the minority,I would suggest

 

[wjemather]

Very much the minority,I would suggest

Absolutely. Nevertheless, being left with a tie (and a potential coin toss to determine a winner) is a possibility with countback, so if a playoff is feasible, it is a better option.

 

[Swango1980]

Contact the county, and ask them to measure a Course Rating, Bogey Rating (and thus Slope Rating) for the 3 holes in the Play Off, and then on your Handicap Board, add Course / Playing handicaps for those 3 holes for any given index

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Contact the county, and ask them to measure a Course Rating, Bogey Rating (and thus Slope Rating) for the 3 holes in the Play Off, and then on your Handicap Board, add Course / Playing handicaps for those 3 holes for any given index

Not sure your friendly County Course Rating Team would be accommodating to such a request!

 

[twrmgoat]

That may be easier to work out, but it wouldn't be fair (see below), and couldn't be applied to regular stroke play (medal) as you don't get shots on any holes (playing handicaps are subtracted from the total gross score).

SIs should be allocated with consideration to extra holes in match play, so stroke allocation should be fair for matches going extra holes playing them in order from the 1st.
Stroke play playoffs over a set number of holes are commonly not held over consecutive holes from the 1st as they use holes that are convenient for looping back towards the clubhouse (e.g. we play 1, 17 & 18). As such, allocating strokes from the full 18h PH per the SIs could result in no strokes being received by a mid-high handicappers. For example (theoretical and deliberately extreme), a 4-hole playoff held over SI 15, 16, 17, 18 between a scratch golfer and a 14 handicapper would mean neither receiving strokes, when the 14-handicapper would need 3 strokes for it to be fair.

Sounds like you also have 3 hole playoffs - going back to original question, how do you do the handicapping?

 

[wjemather]

Sounds like you also have 3 hole playoffs - going back to original question, how do you do the handicapping?

We only have playoffs for the gross; handicap ties are broken by card playoff (countback) or left as ties.

 

[apj0524]

Why not use countback for ties?

For our major Honours Hcp Trophies ties are resolved in with an 18 Hole Play off, after this in the event of a tie countback is then used

 

[D-S]

For our major Honours Hcp Trophies ties are resolved in with an 18 Hole Play off, after this in the event of a tie countback is then used

On the same day?

 

[tobybarker]

Countback isn't always successful in breaking ties.

It's successful, but unfair. Why would the final 3 or 6 or indeed 9 be better than the first? I've never understood the logic of countback.....

 

[wjemather]

It's successful, but unfair. Why would the final 3 or 6 or indeed 9 be better than the first? I've never understood the logic of countback.....

Coincidentally, we had an overall tie after countback last week, so no, it certainly isn't always successful (although we operate divisions, so it didn't actually matter to us this time).


Countback is just a simple method of breaking ties using the scores returned - any holes could be used; it's just convention to use the last 9, 6, 3, 1. It's perfectly fair, just as tossing a coin or drawing lots would be fair.

 

[tobybarker]

Scissors paper stone would be fair, then.