Penalty or Not - on Green

[Colin L]

The responsibility to prevent your opponent using your ball as a possible back stop was entirely yours. The only way you could have avoided it was to tell them you were going to mark and lift your ball before they played. They would then have been obliged to wait until you had done so and only if they had not waited but played before you had a chance to lift your ball, would they have done anything wrong and been liable to penalty. See Rule 15.3a.

Any bad feeling on your part was inappropriate. You should have been annoyed at yourself.

 

[2blue]

Thanks Colin, but not quite that straight forward..... haha.. whenever is it?
Our chipped up ball was played from a position where we couldn,t see the full out-come until we'd walked a way around. The opposition played in the meanwhile before we were fully 'present' at the green & when our back-stop ball was re-placed it was conceded, it being that near. Hence our 'disquiet' as it did feel as though they taken advantage of the situation. I guess somethings have to just go down as 'an experience'.

 

[Colin L]

Thanks Colin, but not quite that straight forward..... haha.. whenever is it?
Our chipped up ball was played from a position where we couldn,t see the full out-come until we'd walked a way around. The opposition played in the meanwhile before we were fully 'present' at the green & when our back-stop ball was re-placed it was conceded, it being that near. Hence our 'disquiet' as it did feel as though they taken advantage of the situation. I guess somethings have to just go down as 'an experience'.

I think it is still just as straightforward! There will be many times when you don't know the outcome of a shot to the green and your opponent is under no obligation to wait to let you get to where you can see your ball just in case you want to lift it. If they did knowingly or inadvertently get an advantage from your not seeing where your ball was, they did nothing wrong.

I'm not being very sympathetic, I'm afraid. If you know your ball on the green could be helpful to your opponent and don't say you are going to lift it, that's your mistake. If you don't know that it could be helpful through being unsighted and your opponent plays in turn with a potential advantage to be gained, that's his good fortune. Neither way, in my opinion, have you any justification for thinking he has behaved badly.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Then no penalty to your opponent for hitting your ball, but loss of hole to you for playing from a wrong place.

Now I never knew that.

So in a match if my opponent putts up to 6" - then before he holes out or marks his ball position and picks up - I can putt and 'accidentally' knock his ball away - with no penalty to me? That just can't be right. Or does Exception 2 to rule 11.1b cover this eventuality by my opponents ball at rest by the hole being considered (defined?) to be a Moveable Obstruction? I am reading Rule 11 and for the life of me I can't work out the answer to this simple question.

Feeling stupid.

 

[duncan mackie]

Now I never knew that.

So in a match if my opponent putts up to 6" - then before he holes out or marks his ball position and picks up - I can putt and 'accidentally' knock his ball away - with no penalty to me? That just can't be right. Or does Exception 2 to rule 11.1b cover this eventuality by my opponents ball at rest by the hole being considered (defined?) to be a Moveable Obstruction? I am reading Rule 11 and for the life of me I can't work out the answer to this simple question.

Feeling stupid.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here!
1. You can state your intention to mark which effectively freezes the opponents options if you wish, so you line becomes - before he states his intention to mark, marks or has his putt conceded and removes...
2. If he holes out you could have it replaced....but then 1 applies again.
3. He will be replacing his 'knocked away' ball anyway, so that bit is irrelevant.

 

[Swango1980]

I have no idea what you are trying to say here!
1. You can state your intention to mark which effectively freezes the opponents options if you wish, so you line becomes - before he states his intention to mark, marks or has his putt conceded and removes...
2. If he holes out you could have it replaced....but then 1 applies again.
3. He will be replacing his 'knocked away' ball anyway, so that bit is irrelevant.

I think what he was asking was, based on the previous post by yourself:

In stroke play, his competitors ball is next to the hole. He then putts up (from the green), hit the competitiors ball and he gets a 2 shot penalty. However, if he does exactly the same thing in match play, he would not be subject to penalty for hitting his opponents ball.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think what he was asking was, based on the previous post by yourself:

In stroke play, his competitors ball is next to the hole. He then putts up (from the green), hit the competitiors ball and he gets a 2 shot penalty. However, if he does exactly the same thing in match play, he would not be subject to penalty for hitting his opponents ball.

And I can't see where it says that in Match Play (or where it says in a general way) my opponent can put his ball back to where it was before my ball hit it.

It must be there I know...just can't pick it out.

Still feeling stupid...

 

[Swango1980]

And I can't see where it says that in Match Play (or where it says in a general way) my opponent can put his ball back to where it was before my ball hit it.

It must be there I know...just can't pick it out.

Still feeling stupid...

The first bit is, why do you not get a penalty for hitting his ball in match play? The answer is Rule 11.1a, where it explains there is no penalty to the player, with the only Exception being if a putt from the green hits another ball in stroke play. I must admit, I'd didn't realise that this was OK in match play before, the situation never arose, and I guess players will automatically assume the same would be true in match play if it is in stroke play.

In terms of why your opponent has to put his ball back? That rule is 9.6, which discusses what happens when a ball at rest is moved (i.e. it must be replaced)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The first bit is, why do you not get a penalty for hitting his ball in match play? The answer is Rule 11.1a, where it explains there is no penalty to the player, with the only Exception being if a putt from the green hits another ball in stroke play. I must admit, I'd didn't realise that this was OK in match play before, the situation never arose, and I guess players will automatically assume the same would be true in match play if it is in stroke play.

In terms of why your opponent has to put his ball back? That rule is 9.6, which discusses what happens when a ball at rest is moved (i.e. it must be replaced)

Ah 9.6 - that's why I didn't see it in 11.1. Thankyou.

I knew I couldn't have been so mistaken for so long...

 

[Colin L]

Rule 9.5a.

But don't feel stupid. I for one find it very easy to know a rule but mislay its number, along with my reading glasses, my car keys, my pen ......... You name it, I've lost it.

PS. 9.6 applies to another player in stroke play. Your opponent is not an outside influence (see the Definition of Outside Influence)

 

[Swango1980]

Can I ask, not getting a penalty in match play for hitting your opponents ball after you make a putt from the green. Has that always been the case, or was it changed in 2019? So, theoretically, if an opponent chipped close to hole for an almost guaranteed par, so long as they say nothing, could I make a putt for birdie whilst their ball is still close (and just off my line), and if I happen to hit it wide, but it deflects in off their ball, then I win the hole?

 

[Colin L]

No change in the 2019 rules from before - although I can't answer for "always"

And yes to your second question. If your ball is deflected by your opponent's ball at rest you play it as it lies which means that if it has gone into the hole, it's holed. It's up to your opponent to look after his own interests and not leave his ball in a position likely to help you.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Rule 9.5a.

But don't feel stupid. I for one find it very easy to know a rule but mislay its number, along with my reading glasses, my car keys, my pen ......... You name it, I've lost it.

PS. 9.6 applies to another player in stroke play. Your opponent is not an outside influence (see the Definition of Outside Influence)

One of the problems I find reading answers to specific problems that refer to specific rules - is that often I can read between the lines of any rule being referenced - not forgetting - but sometimes overlooking - that often it is the case that rules can't be taken in isolation or interpreted for other scenarios. Indeed it is important to remember that when reading a rule we should read the black squiggly bits and not try and read what is not written in the white spaces in between.

And so as here my scenario is actually fully covered by a different rule (9.5a) to the scenario for which 11.1 applies - even although at first (and second) reading it seems that 11.1 might cover it. I'm thinking that the fact that 9.5a comes before 11.1 suggests that the rule covers my scenario in a more 'elementary' or 'generic' way than a subsequent rule that might consider similar, but more specific, scenarios.

 

[rulefan]

Aren't the two rules talking about different balls?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Aren't the two rules talking about different balls?

9.5a and 9.5b cover my scenario. Matchplay and I deliberately play a shot to hit my opponents ball and I succeed. Under 9.5b I get a one shot penalty - and under 9.5a my opponent replaces his ball to where it originally sat. There is nothing in either rule that differentiates between me being on or off the green - or indeed nothing that says either ball must be on the green. These two rules apply anywhere on the course.

 

[YandaB]

9.5a and 9.5b cover my scenario. Matchplay and I deliberately play a shot to hit my opponents ball and I succeed. Under 9.5b I get a one shot penalty - and under 9.5a my opponent replaces his ball to where it originally sat. There is nothing in either rule that differentiates between me being on or off the green - or indeed nothing that says either ball must be on the green. These two rules apply anywhere on the course.

It must be a strange scenario where if I am good enough to deliberately hit a ball that is 1.68 inches big then surely I would put it into the hole that is over 2.5 times as big. I can see where I (being not that good) might hit it towards a hole with a ball nearby that might deflect it towards the hole if I were off-line, but to me that is not deliberately playing a shot to hit the ball.

 

[Colin L]

Can you really envisage someone deliberately attempting to hit his opponent's ball to get a deflection into the hole rather than aiming to put his ball directly into the hole with the extra advantage that if he misses the hole and hits his opponent's ball he might get a helpful deflection or stop?

@yandabrown.
Sorry you seem to have an echo!

 

[rulie]

9.5a and 9.5b cover my scenario. Matchplay and I deliberately play a shot to hit my opponents ball and I succeed. Under 9.5b I get a one shot penalty - and under 9.5a my opponent replaces his ball to where it originally sat. There is nothing in either rule that differentiates between me being on or off the green - or indeed nothing that says either ball must be on the green. These two rules apply anywhere on the course.

I don't think your interpretation of 9.5a and 9.5b are correct with respect to the situation you've described. Imo, there would be no one stroke penalty for your actions.

 

[rulefan]

9.5a and 9.5b cover my scenario. Matchplay and I deliberately play a shot to hit my opponents ball and I succeed. Under 9.5b I get a one shot penalty - and under 9.5a my opponent replaces his ball to where it originally sat. There is nothing in either rule that differentiates between me being on or off the green - or indeed nothing that says either ball must be on the green. These two rules apply anywhere on the course.

Rule 9 is about a ball at rest being moved. The other rule you mentioned (11.1), is about your ball hitting another. It had me confused when I read it

 

[Swango1980]

I

Rule 9 is about a ball at rest being moved. The other rule you mentioned (11.1), is about your ball hitting another. It had me confused when I read it

I think it is because 11.1 describes what should happen to him, who hit the ball at rest. And Rule 9 describes what happens to the guy he is playing with, whose ball at rest got hit.