Penalty Area Margin

[rulefan]

At a recent EG event a ball was in or near a PA. The PA was originally a Water Hazard and the bank sloped down to the water.
There were red stakes surrounding the area but no red lines.
The player's ball was outside of a line from stake to stake but on the slope down to the water, The player asked a nearby referee if the ball was in or out of the PA.
The Referee said that in the absence of lines the stakes only indicated the presence of a PA by did not define it. The margin was therefore where the ground 'broke down'.
NB the ball was not in or near the water. Apparently there was no LR specifying just how the margin(s) were identified.
Was the referee right?

 

[2blue]

At a recent EG event a ball was in or near a PA. The PA was originally a Water Hazard and the bank sloped down to the water.
There were red stakes surrounding the area but no red lines.
The player's ball was outside of a line from stake to stake but on the slope down to the water, The player asked a nearby referee if the ball was in or out of the PA.
The Referee said that in the absence of lines the stakes only indicated the presence of a PA by did not define it. The margin was therefore where the ground 'broke down'.
NB the ball was not in or near the water. Apparently there was no LR specifying just how the margin(s) were identified.
Was the referee right?

I'd have thought if there are no lines then post to post defines the penalty area though I have heard of it being defined as where the ground 'brakes'..... in that case would that be a local rule?

 

[Colin L]

At a recent EG event a ball was in or near a PA. The PA was originally a Water Hazard and the bank sloped down to the water.
There were red stakes surrounding the area but no red lines.
The player's ball was outside of a line from stake to stake but on the slope down to the water, The player asked a nearby referee if the ball was in or out of the PA.
The Referee said that in the absence of lines the stakes only indicated the presence of a PA by did not define it. The margin was therefore where the ground 'broke down'.
NB the ball was not in or near the water. Apparently there was no LR specifying just how the margin(s) were identified.
Was the referee right?

No.

Edit: I was too sleepy last night to say more than a blunt No. The referee is confused and needs to revise the the Definition which is clear about when you use the natural boundaries of an area of water to define the edge of a PA and that is (a) when the edge of a body of water is not defined by the Committee i.e. where there are no stakes, no line and no verbal definition of the edge or (b) when stakes miss out part of what must be the penalty area. These are "if and only if" situations which he has somehow turned the wrong way round.

What I wonder, would this chap say about a dry penalty area marked by stakes which is on completely flat ground?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just need to ask @Orikoru about his not dissimilar OoB situation (white posts and cut grass - remember?) Rather let’s not

 

[rulefan]

I did wonder if the ref had seen the presentation I had been to

https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/where-should-the-red-stakes-be.115148/

and had got confused.

 

[LincolnShep]

As I understand it, there is an order of precedence:
If there's a line, you use that even if it conflicts with any stakes.
If there's stakes but no line, then you use a virtual straight line between each adjacent stake.
If there's no line and no stakes, you use the natural features. Thankfully, I've never seen this as it seems like a recipe for arguments.

BTW, I'm not a rules official so please tell me if I'm wrong!

 

[Colin L]

As I understand it, there is an order of precedence:
If there's a line, you use that even if it conflicts with any stakes.
If there's stakes but no line, then you use a virtual straight line between each adjacent stake.
If there's no line and no stakes, you use the natural features. Thankfully, I've never seen this as it seems like a recipe for arguments.

BTW, I'm not a rules official so please tell me if I'm wrong!

You could add in that there may be neither stakes nor lines but a verbal description of a feature that defines the edge.

 

[jim8flog]

Going back to older thread we definitely use C and it is defined on the back of the card in the LRs.

Our posts often go 'walkabout' sometimes simply washed down stream when the course floods or sometimes due to vandalism or theft.

 

[chrisd]

1. We have 3 different ones. Only in the PA if your're in the concrete or wooden channel

2. Or if no concrete or wood channel, where it breaks down to the ditch

3. Hole 5, the red stakes mark the PA

Otherwise the red stakes only indicate where the PA is

Don't ask, they know it all !

 

[Deleted member 25172]

As I understand it, there is an order of precedence:
If there's a line, you use that even if it conflicts with any stakes.
If there's stakes but no line, then you use a virtual straight line between each adjacent stake.
If there's no line and no stakes, you use the natural features. Thankfully, I've never seen this as it seems like a recipe for arguments.

BTW, I'm not a rules official so please tell me if I'm wrong!

I'm relatively new to my club and came across this this past weekend. On the 16th, a longish dog-legged par 4, going left to right, around 200 yards from the tee or so, there's a pond on the right hand side with only a rather thin but dense line of bushes and trees covering it. There's no stakes nor are there any lines to suggest that this should be treated as a PA. Not sure I've come across this before so I didn't know what the procedure was here as my playing partner had put his ball somewhere in there. It was just a casual friendly knock so just put a ball down and played on. He did ask me what the correct proceedings were but I really didn't have a clue.

 

[salfordlad]

I'm relatively new to my club and came across this this past weekend. On the 16th, a longish dog-legged par 4, going left to right, around 200 yards from the tee or so, there's a pond on the right hand side with only a rather thin but dense line of bushes and trees covering it. There's no stakes nor are there any lines to suggest that this should be treated as a PA. Not sure I've come across this before so I didn't know what the procedure was here as my playing partner had put his ball somewhere in there. It was just a casual friendly knock so just put a ball down and played on. He did ask me what the correct proceedings were but I really didn't have a clue.

Always unfortunate when a Committee fails to mark a course appropriately. In the absence of any markings, we take guidance from the definition of Penalty Area that states "When the edge of a body of water is not defined by the Committee, the edge of that penalty area is defined by its natural boundaries (that is, where the ground slopes down to form the depression that can hold the water)." All you need to do is apply that guidance .