Out of Bounds and ball lost Rule Query

[TJ Hooker]

Hi Advice needed on rules please based on a round last week.

Two players
Both hit tee shots big right around trees.
Blind to landing area from the tee.

Neither plays a provisional.

Player 1 (me) Ball found 2 yards OB so playing 4th shot 2 club lengths in. Fine with that.

Player 2 cant find his thouhh was heading towards OB though cant be confirmed but he declares it lost and plays "third shot". I think this is wrong and it should be playing 4 as did not return to the tee.

Player 1 also loses his ball on his 4 shot heading near to OB again though cant be confirmed and plays 7 ..should this be 6 ? OB could not be confirmed

So OB and lost scenarios and correct procedure advice please if possible.

Thanks for any guidance.

 

[Viewer]

Both should go back to the tee to play 3rd shots

 

[doublebogey7]

For both OB and lost ball it is stroke and distance under the rules of golf. There is a local rule that clubs could adopt to give players the option of dropping on the fairway at the nearest point to where the ball was thought to be lost or have gone OB, for a two shot penalty. However scores played under this local rule are not acceptable for handicapping in the UK, so I have not come across any club that has adopted it.

 

[jim8flog]

As already said

The club must have this rule in place as a local rule to avoid going back to play from where the previous shot was played from . When the question was asked on this forum nobody said their club had adopted it.

It is worth remembering that the advice is if the rule is in place is it should not be used for official club clubs.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

If it was just a friendly round of golf, and not a handicap qualifying round
Then Player 1, plays 4 from anywhere up to two clubs onto the fairway not nearer the hole from where the ball crossed the OOB
Player 2, also plays 4 from anywhere up to two clubs onto the fairway not nearer the hole from where the ball is estimated to lost
Player 1, Plays 7 from where his 4th shot is estimate to be lost or OOB

 

[IanM]

Plays 7? Two lost balls, time to walk to the next tee.

As above, I've not come across anywhere that's implemented the rule either. I wonder if the Home Unions know of any.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Plays 7? Two lost balls, time to walk to the next tee.

As above, I've not come across anywhere that's implemented the rule either. I wonder if the Home Unions know of any.

We use this rule in our Society Venues and if we have a friendly tee-time. It saves the time of the walk back to the tee.

 

[doublebogey7]

If it was just a friendly round of golf, and not a handicap qualifying round
Then Player 1, plays 4 from anywhere up to two clubs onto the fairway not nearer the hole from where the ball crossed the OOB
Player 2, also plays 4 from anywhere up to two clubs onto the fairway not nearer the hole from where the ball is estimated to lost
Player 1, Plays 7 from where his 4th shot is estimate to be lost or OOB

If it is simply a friendly game with mates, then it is up to the group what rules they adopt and what they don't. We generally play a hybrid of the MLR in question. We also have gimmies to speed the game up are very generous on our interpreting GUR etc.

 

[Viewer]

If it was just a friendly round of golf, and not a handicap qualifying round
Then Player 1, plays 4 from anywhere up to two clubs onto the fairway not nearer the hole from where the ball crossed the OOB
Player 2, also plays 4 from anywhere up to two clubs onto the fairway not nearer the hole from where the ball is estimated to lost
Player 1, Plays 7 from where his 4th shot is estimate to be lost or OOB

If it’s just a friendly round of golf then on that basis they can make up what they like between really!

 

[Steve Wilkes]

If it’s just a friendly round of golf then on that basis they can make up what they like between really!

Well obviously, if it's a friendly they can do what they like, but in the original post they already insinuated they are trying to use the E-5 rule, so I just stated what shots they are playing using the rule E-5 recomendation.

 

[IanM]

Most (new) players pick up rules as they go along... we've all been through it!

These days it's a bit easier as the R&A have produced Apps that help. Not sure if you've found these yet, but I think they are worth a look.

 

[Neilds]

Another thing to consider is the “known or virtually certain” phrase - also known as kvc. This is where you have to decide, with 95% certainty that your ball has ended up where you think it has.
For example, if there is rough before some oob or a hazard, can you be certain that your ball has gone into the oob or the hazard? As your tee shots were blind, could your partner have hit a tree and gone somewhere else other than oob? If you cannot be virtually certain the ball is oob then it is a trip back to the tee and hitting 3.

 

[Colin L]

Another thing to consider is the “known or virtually certain” phrase - also known as kvc. This is where you have to decide, with 95% certainty that your ball has ended up where you think it has.
For example, if there is rough before some oob or a hazard, can you be certain that your ball has gone into the oob or the hazard? As your tee shots were blind, could your partner have hit a tree and gone somewhere else other than oob? If you cannot be virtually certain the ball is oob then it is a trip back to the tee and hitting 3.

Perhaps you meant a penalty area or an abnormal course condition where the standard of virtual certainty is relevant rather than out of bounds where it isn't. If you know your ball is out of bounds, you have to play from where you played your previous stroke; if you think it's out of bounds but are not absolutely sure it is out of bounds and can't find it within three minutes of looking, you have to play from where you played your previous stroke; and if you simply haven't a scoobie where your ball is and can't find it within three minutes of looking,, you have to play from where you played your previous stroke. The exceptions to stroke and distance for a ball not found are where you know or are virtually certain that a) your ball has been moved by an outside influence or played by another player; b) is in a penalty area or an abnormal course condition; or c) has been stopped or deflected by another person. [See Rule 18.2b]

 

[Swinglowandslow]

For both OB and lost ball it is stroke and distance under the rules of golf. There is a local rule that clubs could adopt to give players the option of dropping on the fairway at the nearest point to where the ball was thought to be lost or have gone OB, for a two shot penalty. However scores played under this local rule are not acceptable for handicapping in the UK, so I have not come across any club that has adopted it.

As I understand it, this local rule created by the R&A was motivated in an effort to avoid slow play.
IMO, it should have been made a rule in that it could be chosen as an alternative to the present rule.I.e. Not a local rule.
The handicap people would then have had to accept that.

 

[salfordlad]

As I understand it, this local rule created by the R&A was motivated in an effort to avoid slow play.
IMO, it should have been made a rule in that it could be chosen as an alternative to the present rule.I.e. Not a local rule.
The handicap people would then have had to accept that.

There's nothing wrong with the local rule, it makes sense on some courses and in some locations for non-elite events, particularly where golf societies of various stripes play and bring a field with a proportion of visitors unfamiliar with a specific course. What is bizarre is a handicapping authority uniquely overriding the Rules of Golf and a Committee's legitimate choice in a strange exception to what the rest of the planet sees as potentially appropriate. IMO, it says much about the arrogance and limited intellectual capacity of the decision makers at the handicapping authority. Reminds me of the proud Mum at the military parade, "look there's my Johnny, the only one in step".

 

[rulie]

As I understand it, this local rule created by the R&A was motivated in an effort to avoid slow play.
IMO, it should have been made a rule in that it could be chosen as an alternative to the present rule.I.e. Not a local rule.
The handicap people would then have had to accept that.

The "handicap people" make the rules for handicapping, not the Rules of the game.
It's not very frequent that such a deviation from the normal Rule (stroke and distance) would make its way into the Rules at first go. In fact, the Model Local Rule was a surprise to many Rules aficionados. But, it may make it into the Rules in a couple generations?
We use that MLR at our club (Canada) and the handicapping authorities have no objection to its use for score posting. I would suggest that it is used for everyday play (and handicapping) by the vast majority of clubs in our country.
I agree with salfordlad's post above, the handicapping authority is out of line. They need to review their process since the MLR is authorized for use by the Ruling Bodies. What other MLR might they object to and effectively "outlaw" for use in handicapping play?

 

[doublebogey7]

As I understand it, this local rule created by the R&A was motivated in an effort to avoid slow play.
IMO, it should have been made a rule in that it could be chosen as an alternative to the present rule.I.e. Not a local rule.
The handicap people would then have had to accept that.

Really, so you want to see this rule in operation at The Masters, The Open etc.

 

[Viewer]

Really, so you want to see this rule in operation at The Masters, The Open etc.

No they would then want a local rule in place that stopped such practice if so, which the vast majority of clubs would then probably implement as well as it’s not proper golf. 2 foot gimmes will be the next request I suspect then!

 

[salfordlad]

Really, so you want to see this rule in operation at The Masters, The Open etc.

Read the local rule and its preamble. It is all laid out there, eg, "The Local Rule is not appropriate for competitions limited to highly skilled players (that is, professional competitions and elite amateur competitions)". It has a place that can be important for some courses, some holes and some "everyday" club and society-type competitions, no-one is suggesting here it should be used everywhere. My observation is where does a handicap body get off telling everyone in their unfortunate jurisdiction they are overriding an official Local Rule from availability? It is sad behaviour by pettifogging bureaucrats.

 

[D-S]

It is a bit surprising that the Golf GB&I (formerly CONGU) do not approve the use of this rule for acceptable scores for handicap.
They allow cards when there are 2 temporary greens in play or all bunkers are GUR. They allow fairway mats to be used and MLR E-2 to be in place in the General Area which is allegedly difficult to police.
They seem to be doing all they can to increase the number of General Play cards submitted, the reluctance in accepting this MLR seems out of step with their direction of travel.