Osteomyology.

[Foxholer]

...Some practitioners use the term osteopathy to charge more for physio, and that is fine, but the basic philosophy of osteopathy (as with chiropractic) claims that manipulating the back can affect all the other organs in the body, which is bollocks, no matter how many hours of training they do.

That has never been a claim made by any of the Chiropractors I've been successfully treated by! It may have been an original 'chiropractic' claim, but that has been dropped - just as 'Bleeding' is no longer standard practice for medical practitioners!

 

[Ethan]

That has never been a claim made by any of the Chiropractors I've been successfully treated by! It may have been an original 'chiropractic' claim, but that has been dropped - just as 'Bleeding' is no longer standard practice for medical practitioners!

But subluxation is still considered-by many to be the key problem which is managed by manipulation and there is no evidence it exists, is a problem if it did, or is treated by manipulation. The basic philosophy of chiropractic has not changed but they may talk less about the witchcraft aspects.

 

[User62651]

I just had 2 osteopath sessions for the first time ever re bad back and shoulders/hip, bad back comes and goes since 2008 prolapsed disc, but has been more jippy than normal of late from shed building and firewooding I think. Trouble for me was the back was getting much better before I saw the osteopath, this guy typically decried all conventional medicine and physiotherapy and I didn't really buy into it. I only went because my work healthcare scheme covered the cost and I was keen to see if there was anything in it as the back was really bad for loinger than normal before settling. The process is very relaxing however and I think that's where any perceived benefit lies, you feel relaxed after treatment and walk out feeling relaxed (rather than repaired) but to be honest a week later my back is still jippy as are my hips and shoulder joints. Really not sure about it, trouble is when you see a GP (I saw one earlier today) you just feel rushed, I wanted to chat over a few things but I could sense impatience so summed up and got out, an osteopath or chiro session allows ample time to discuss problems better and chill out, which can be a great help in itself I think, at a cost of course. Not convinced on alternative medicine at all but happy to be open minded and at least try.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I have seen a chiropractor and more recentl a sport physio for my lower back pains, don't even consider the GP.
I also had a ruptured achilles tendon a few years ago. Doctor sent me to hospital, then to the consultant to be told "waiting list of up to 2 years, followed by surgery and plaster for 8 weeks then physio". They said they could do nothing for the partially healing and very sore and tight tendon. Gave up on the system, and went to an Accupuncturist. 2 visits later, pain was almost gone, tendon was healing, scar tissue lump diminishing rapidly and now there is no lump or pain.
Other countries don't have our NHS, and they still heal people.....probably better and quicker.

 

[Crazyface]

I have had numerous back issues over the years due to playing hockey for over 20 years. My lower back was in bits with non stop pain. Have tried painkillers and anti inflam pills plus physio and exercise ( Pilates and Yoga ) and it's eased it at times. Seen a chiropractor and the pain is relieved for a good period of time - it works , there is no doubt it works.

My wife also has back issues because of hockey and also sees a chiropractor and it also works for her

One of our friends is a recently qualified chiropractor and he puts to the dismal of their practice from some doctors as pure arrogance and old age beliefs plus pressure from drug companies.

There have been many cases where chiropractor has been proven to work without causing any damage for many people.

no wonder you've back problems!! hockey....running around bent over...just asking for trouble. I'm surprised no one has invented longer sticks.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

no wonder you've back problems!! hockey....running around bent over...just asking for trouble. I'm surprised no one has invented longer sticks.

The sport has given me all sorts of issues but thankfully they are easing up well - with the help of a chiropractor

 

[Ethan]

Ethan, See post 10

I cannot speak for Osteomyology, but standard Osteopathy certainly does work, If ever I have another back problem, I know who i'm gonna call, and is aint my GP

It wasnt that long ago that Doctors were prescribing cigarettes to help with lung problems.

last year salt was the big enemy, now its changed to sugar. Things move on

Clearly we have an ageing population, many of these are no burden to the NHS at all, coz they all go and see their local private osteopath or chiropractor because they know they will get results and if they go to the GP, its a waste of time. Maybe thats why the NHS is happy with the status quo

Phil

The point about anecdotes isn't that someone is telling porkies or is a fantasist. It is that individual cases and treatments are very individual. The specific circumstances of one case don't say much about the general application of a treatment to a broad population. In other words, your condition improved, but you don't know that it was due to the treatment, or whether it got better spontaneously, was already getting better, that other treatments you took before kicked in, that resting did the trick etc etc. That is why we do large scale controlled clinical trials. In every trial, even when people get a dummy pill, there are placebo responders.

So 'It doesn't work' doesn't mean you didn't get better, it means that in larger trials there is no net benefit, so we don't know why you got better.

It is true to say that medicine has changed a lot over the years. This is learning and is a good thing. That learning has included the fact that smoking isn't good for the lungs and other things. The salt/fat/sugar debate is presented to the public by the Daily Mail as X good, Y evil. The actual scientific debate is a bit more nuanced.

 

[Smiffy]

Osteomyology is even less well regulated chiropractic.

I wouldn't go near them, but glad it has done something for you. I expect you don't have any torn muscles, unless he tore them for you.

When people are twisting your neck and back, you should be skeptical. There have been people who attended chiropractors and other back crackers who got strokes through damages to arteries in the neck, as well as spinal cord injuries.

When you are dealing with an unregulated break-away group of practitioners, you should even more skeptical.

I deal in science and data and therefore I am suspicious of all alternative medicine, of which this is part, because it is not based in science and in some cases incompatible with the laws of physics. Some alternative medicine is ot intrinsically harmful, such as homeopathy, although it might delay people getting proper medicine, but back and neck-cracking is indeed potentially harmful, and the claims that soft tissue and organ disease is connected to the alignment of the inter-vertebral joints is demonstrably nonsense.

But it is your neck and back, so make your own choice and good luck.

And I hope it works for you. No desire to see it work out badly to prove a debating point!

By 'accepted process' do you mean checking if it actually works and doesn't cause more harm than good? If so, I am all for the 'accepted process'.

NICE, the NHS review body no longer recommends chiropractic, osteopathy or acupuncture for low back pain, which was the only thing osteopathy was ever thought to be possibly useful for.

https://www.nice.org.uk/news/press-...ith-low-back-pain-says-nice-in-draft-guidance

It doesn't work. Ask NICE. They use science rather than unverifiable anecdotes. These stories about what happened to you or your friend or third cousin twice removed are neither data nor science.

The journal probably didn't publish the so-called informal (code for crap?) study because it was rubbish. The pharma companies are not notified of forthcoming publications, and wouldn't threaten to withdraw advertising over something so trivial as that. But feel free to continue to believe in your conspiracy theory.

Plenty of real scientists have done big formal studies which show that it doesn't work. Sorry.

IT DOESN'T WORK. Sorry.

Funny how advocates of mumbo jumbo decry those who believe in science as closed minded. Perhaps better closed that someone conned into gullible magical thinking. Anyone who says 'I don't care what research says' is just such a person. Try a lucky rabbit's foot. That might work too.

The way that science works is that it looks at trials of various treatments compared to placebo or to standard of care. Evaluations of osteopathy, chiropractic and acupuncture have shown they are no better then getting up and moving around. The so-called science base of chiropractic and osteopathy are not in keeping with the laws of science. Some practitioners use the term osteopathy to charge more for physio, and that is fine, but the basic philosophy of osteopathy (as with chiropractic) claims that manipulating the back can affect all the other organs in the body, which is bollocks, no matter how many hours of training they do. Being trained in bollocks doesn't make it true.

I know a few American doctors who have as their medical degree a Doctor of Osteopathy (DO). This is an equivalent to an MD issued by some medical schools in the mid-west, mostly. They also agree it is bollocks.

If we relied on personal anecdote, then blow-letting, eye of newt and dancing naked in a full moon would all still be established treatments.

But subluxation is still considered-by many to be the key problem which is managed by manipulation and there is no evidence it exists, is a problem if it did, or is treated by manipulation. The basic philosophy of chiropractic has not changed but they may talk less about the witchcraft aspects.

Phil

The point about anecdotes isn't that someone is telling porkies or is a fantasist. It is that individual cases and treatments are very individual. The specific circumstances of one case don't say much about the general application of a treatment to a broad population. In other words, your condition improved, but you don't know that it was due to the treatment, or whether it got better spontaneously, was already getting better, that other treatments you took before kicked in, that resting did the trick etc etc. That is why we do large scale controlled clinical trials. In every trial, even when people get a dummy pill, there are placebo responders.

So 'It doesn't work' doesn't mean you didn't get better, it means that in larger trials there is no net benefit, so we don't know why you got better.

It is true to say that medicine has changed a lot over the years. This is learning and is a good thing. That learning has included the fact that smoking isn't good for the lungs and other things. The salt/fat/sugar debate is presented to the public by the Daily Mail as X good, Y evil. The actual scientific debate is a bit more nuanced.

I felt like this about stack and tilt before I sat down with James and discussed it properly....

 

[Rooter]

A question for Ethan, are you a fan of Osteomyology? I am not quite sure of your views on it...

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Phil

The point about anecdotes isn't that someone is telling porkies or is a fantasist. It is that individual cases and treatments are very individual. The specific circumstances of one case don't say much about the general application of a treatment to a broad population. In other words, your condition improved, but you don't know that it was due to the treatment, or whether it got better spontaneously, was already getting better, that other treatments you took before kicked in, that resting did the trick etc etc. That is why we do large scale controlled clinical trials. In every trial, even when people get a dummy pill, there are placebo responders.

So 'It doesn't work' doesn't mean you didn't get better, it means that in larger trials there is no net benefit, so we don't know why you got better.

.

Hear what you say Ethan, but the highlighted sentence above is the clincher.

 

[Ethan]

A question for Ethan, are you a fan of Osteomyology? I am not quite sure of your views on it...

Yeah, love it. Hate Stack'n'tilt though, which ironically can make you need some physio.

 

[Ethan]

Hear what you say Ethan, but the highlighted sentence above is the clincher.

To further illustrate, I have conducted studies where we have treated patients with new investigational medicines, some of whom have done well. I remember one trial for a debilitating condition after which I got a letter from one of the trial patients thanking us for the wonderful medicine we had given him and the great effect it had on his condition.

I thanked him for his letter and wished him well, but did not tell him he had been on placebo the whole time. He is convinced this was a great medicine but had never had it. I bet he told his friends all about it, though.

 

[Snelly]

I had a back problem for almost a year and saw three physiotherapists, an osteopath, an acupuncturist, a sports massage therapist and even in desperation, a chiropractor. All diagnosed different things bar one physio who said it could be any number of causes so have an MRI - advice I didn't take for a year unfortunately.

It became chronic and my wife who is a pharmacist and shares Ethans views on this subject, grasped the nettle, took charge and booked me into our local private hospital for a chat with a leading consultant locally for backs/osteo etc..

He said all the "experts" I had seen previously were all making guesses on what was wrong to a greater or lesser extent and that furthermore, he had no definitive idea what the issue was as it could have been any one of a number of problems.

However, he also said that after an MRI, he would in all likelihood tell me exactly what was wrong. I had the scan the following day followed by a second session with the consultant. He gave me an expert diagnosis and arranged for precisely the right treatment and I was fixed within 5 weeks.

This cost around £900 - a sum I had easily spent on previous sessions with physios etc over the past 9 months anyway.

If anything like the problem I had occurs in future then I will find the best subject matter expert in our area and pay them to diagnose me. I would advise anyone to do the same.

And osteomyology sounds like complete nonsense, to be placed in the same bin as kinesiology and the like. Utter bilge, designed to make money for people without the nouse to go through medical school.

See the top man or woman in your area, have an MRI and let them tell you the facts. Don't rely on the guesswork of someone who got their qualification from a Christmas cracker.

 

[need_my_wedge]

Never heard of Osteomyology before this thread, but I have used Chiro's, Osteo's and physio's in the past. I hurt my back in a roller skating accident some 35 years ago and have had frequent back and neck pain ever since. In my own personal experience, aside from being prescribed some horrible drugs by the doctor (naproxen) which took the pain away, but caused some unpleasant side effects in the stomach, the chiro has always been the best relief. There are plenty of things in my life that do not aid back/ neck recovery - driving 3.5 hours every day to and from the office, sitting at a desk for 7 hours, getting thrown around at Aikido three nights a week, playing golf 3 or 4 times a week. The GP suggestion is if it hurts, don't do it, rest up, but that just seems to cause the body to stiffen up and seize up more in my experience. The chiro treatment releases the tightness and lessens the pain, whether it's "scientific" or not, I don't know, but is a much pleasanter experience than the scientific drugs given as an alternative. My chiro has never referred to his treatment affecting organs in the body, it involves a bit of manipulation, and massage. After 8 years using him as needed, I even trust him with the neck, which took a bit of time, but when it hurts, it bloody hurts and no amount of pain killer/ anti-inflammatory drugs keep it at bay. I'm sure that there are scientific means that work well in some cases, but I'm also sure that there are natural methods that work well in others.

 

[Ethan]

Just seen a Facebook ad by a chiropractor near me. This is some of the stuff they are spouting:

http://www.dfchiropractic.com/what-is-chiropractic-care/

So stress and chemical imbalance can cause your spinal joints to get out of whack? Complete and utter crap.