OOB ruling.

[duncan mackie]

Colin, the fact that the ball ended up on the green is immaterial, the ball was played from of the green and the dogs actions are contemplated to be deliberate.

Tom, there is nothing in decision 19-1/6 which tells us that the dogs actions were contemplated as deliberate. The decision could equally be consistent with the interpretation of "....comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency,..." Colin outlined earlier.

 

[Colin L]

Colin, the fact that the ball ended up on the green is immaterial, the ball was played from of the green and the dogs actions are contemplated to be deliberate.

The Decisions speak specifically about a ball being picked up on the green so the position of the ball is indeed material with regard to those particular Decisions. Whilst 19-1a covers a ball played from anywhere on the course without the Decisions I guess that experience showed that an extra bit of clarification was needed for specific circumstances of a ball being picked up on the green when played from off it or on it. But the main point is that the answers in the Decisions are clearly based on a non-deliberate action by the outside agency ie replace the ball where it came to rest in or on the outside agency (19-1a) or cancel the stroke. If the action was considered deliberate, then the answer would be based on the Note to 19-1 ie you place at the point where it is estimated the ball would have ended up had it not been for the action of the outside agency.


The kind of deliberate action contemplated by the Note might be a spectator standing OOB who kicks a moving ball back into play. Like Duncan, I find it difficult to see the actions of any animal other than a human being deliberate. If the R&A folk consider the action of the OP’s dog deliberate, that’s what would be surprise me - not least of all because it would be inconsistent with these Decisions.


One reassuring thing for the OP. You wouldn’t have to prise open the Rottweiler’s jaws to get your ball back - the Rule allows for the substitution of another ball if the first one is irretrievable. That could equally be because the ball is lodged in the jaws of a dog or an aliigator etc or because the urchin that nicked your ball on the move can run faster than you.

 

[Golfmmad]

Very interesting one this, which I have spoken to my contacts at The R&A about and they have asked me to get a little bit more info about the incident...
1) Was it actually in a competition?
2) How far OOB was the ball when the dog picked it up?
3) What was the area like where the dog picked up the rolling ball - ie any trees, stumps, bushes, walls or slopes that could possibly have deflected the ball back in bounds before it came to rest?

Spoke to the guy this evening.

1) No it wasn't in a competition.

2) Ball was 5-10 yds in when dog picked up ball.

3) Ground was sloping away from fairway, no trees, bushes etc, just grass and a path within OOB.

When dog ran out on to fairway its owner shouted, dog stopped, owner shouted "Drop", dog duly dropped it, in middle of fairway!

Just want to point out, the owner of the dog was not the golfer.

 

[Golfmmad]

Any word on this yet Jezz please?

Thanks.

 

[Colin L]

Ask Paul Casey. He had just such an encounter with a mutt in the Dunhill

http://msn.foxsports.com/golf/story/dog-steals-paul-caseys-ball-at-dunhill-links-100512

And a rules question for you. What error does the writer make in the description of the event?

 

[Golfmmad]

Ha ha, I wish the rules were that easy to decipher.

Thanks for posting! :thup:

 

[JezzE]

Ha ha, I wish the rules were that easy to decipher.

Thanks for posting! :thup:

Sorry, haven't heard back yet - will update as soon as I do.

 

[Golfmmad]

Sorry, haven't heard back yet - will update as soon as I do.

Ok Jezz, thanks very much. :thup:

 

[JezzE]

Ok Jezz, thanks very much. :thup:

Chased this up again today, but have just found out my man at The R&A has been on holiday this week, hence the delay.

I'm out and about all week next week, but should be able to post something as soon as I've heard back from him

 

[Golfmmad]

Chased this up again today, but have just found out my man at The R&A has been on holiday this week, hence the delay.

I'm out and about all week next week, but should be able to post something as soon as I've heard back from him

Thanks for the update Jezz.

By "Out and about" next week, you mean you're playing golf don't you?

 

[JezzE]

Thanks for the update Jezz.

By "Out and about" next week, you mean you're playing golf don't you?

Some and some - a few rounds but also some interviews as well...

 

[JezzE]

Okay - finally here is the official R&A ruling...

"The dog is an outside agency. Where a ball in motion after a stroke (other than a stroke on the putting green) comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency, the ball must be dropped, or in the case of the putting green be placed, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball came to rest in or on the outside agency (Rule 19-1a). In this case, the player would drop the ball where it was picked up; however, that spot was out of bounds and so the ball is out of bounds and the player must put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance."

 

[AmandaJR]

Okay - finally here is the official R&A ruling...

"The dog is an outside agency. Where a ball in motion after a stroke (other than a stroke on the putting green) comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency, the ball must be dropped, or in the case of the putting green be placed, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball came to rest in or on the outside agency (Rule 19-1a). In this case, the player would drop the ball where it was picked up; however, that spot was out of bounds and so the ball is out of bounds and the player must put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance."

Nice one - I was right all along then :cheers:

 

[DCB]

Ooh the suspense.... well got that one wrong

 

[Colin L]

Thanks Jezz. Nice to get confirmation. I can relax now.:whoo:

 

[Golfmmad]

Okay - finally here is the official R&A ruling...

"The dog is an outside agency. Where a ball in motion after a stroke (other than a stroke on the putting green) comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency, the ball must be dropped, or in the case of the putting green be placed, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball came to rest in or on the outside agency (Rule 19-1a). In this case, the player would drop the ball where it was picked up; however, that spot was out of bounds and so the ball is out of bounds and the player must put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance."

Thanks for the clarification Jezz.

I shall pass it on to the Golfer, who will now be well versed in OOB rules.... straight from the R&A no less!

 

[duncan mackie]

Okay - finally here is the official R&A ruling...

"The dog is an outside agency. Where a ball in motion after a stroke (other than a stroke on the putting green) comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency, the ball must be dropped, or in the case of the putting green be placed, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball came to rest in or on the outside agency (Rule 19-1a). In this case, the player would drop the ball where it was picked up; however, that spot was out of bounds and so the ball is out of bounds and the player must put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance."

Cheers Jezz - basically the ball has come to rest relative to the dog, even though it never comes to rest relative to the ground until released/dropped.

 

[JezzE]

Cheers Jezz - basically the ball has come to rest relative to the dog, even though it never comes to rest relative to the ground until released/dropped.

Yes, that's how I interpret it too

 

[Colin L]

See post #29 :thup: