Official WHS Survey

[Dunesman]

I have never encountered it as a topic of conversation at the many clubs I have visited in my County. When I have raised it out of interest, the comments have been primarily re GP and very occasionally (CR-par) and PCC.

You are encountering it here however.

And the topic has been given air more widely through publications such as Golf Monthly, National Club Golfer, and some podcasts. And they arent the prime movers, but referencing and coming from a context of the issue being a sufficiently widespread and live topic in British golf clubs. British based ones I will grant. I dont see it as a topic in American golf channels.

So a topic and controversy it is.
And likely amongst only a minority. But unsatisfactory for a minority is no excuse to dismiss it.
A great majority, I will accept, are entirely blind to the issue, and so have no beef with WHS. But that is to be expected. Roughly stating of course, but 10-16 handicappers are probably minimally or not at all affected. And this is a large proportion of amateur golfers. 18-24, a large group also, are probably gaining a little. But people dont really notice when something is to their advantage, and even less likely, be unhappy about it. 25+ a smaller group, and less affected.

But the single figure and plus range, are the disaffected group who feel agrieved. Just because they are only 10-15 % of golfers, the R&A or England Golf or the vested interest implementers of WHS cannot point to the remainder, and say "look at those 85%, they have no problem, so its a success".
If 5 or 10% of amateur golfers feel its unfair, then either it must be addressed, or, the claim that it is fair backed up. Either way, it is time for England golf to communicate openly and publicly on the matter to restore confidence. Doing nothing is absolutely unacceptable.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

You are encountering it here however.

And the topic has been given air more widely through publications such as Golf Monthly, National Club Golfer, and some podcasts. And they arent the prime movers, but referencing and coming from a context of the issue being a sufficiently widespread and live topic in British golf clubs. British based ones I will grant. I dont see it as a topic in American golf channels.

So a topic and controversy it is.
And likely amongst only a minority. But unsatisfactory for a minority is no excuse to dismiss it.
A great majority, I will accept, are entirely blind to the issue, and so have no beef with WHS. But that is to be expected. Roughly stating of course, but 10-16 handicappers are probably minimally or not at all affected. And this is a large proportion of amateur golfers. 18-24, a large group also, are probably gaining a little. But people dont really notice when something is to their advantage, and even less likely, be unhappy about it. 25+ a smaller group, and less affected.

But the single figure and plus range, are the disaffected group who feel agrieved. Just because they are only 10-15 % of golfers, the R&A or England Golf or the vested interest implementers of WHS cannot point to the remainder, and say "look at those 85%, they have no problem, so its a success".
If 5 or 10% of amateur golfers feel its unfair, then either it must be addressed, or, the claim that it is fair backed up. Either way, it is time for England golf to communicate openly and publicly on the matter to restore confidence. Doing nothing is absolutely unacceptable.

Yes, agreed. Doing nothing risks breaking the amateur game. This group you've identified will find their own way eventually. It's got to be fixed.

 

[AussieKB]

I have never encountered it as a topic of conversation at the many clubs I have visited in my County. When I have raised it out of interest, the comments have been primarily re GP and very occasionally (CR-par) and PCC.

On my visit to England earlier this year I played with at least a dozen golf GM's and numerous Ordinary members, it was mentioned during the round and in Clubhouse all the time, feeling I got from the golf GM's was that they were keeping out of the discussion due to their position and not upsetting the fore's or the against.

Staying with one golf GM who had been a cat 1 golfer for 40 years, he thought it was a joke, another I stayed with whose handicap had increased by 8 shots since I the last time we played was embarrassed about his handicap, he was trying to put in GP rounds to reduce it, so kudos's to him.

You are never going to get a perfect System but the Old one at least stopped people going out 5 shots a year if they so wish, always thought the object was tp get lower, but now all I hear is "I've got a flag dropping off so will get a shot back"

 

[wjemather]

You are never going to get a perfect System but the Old one at least stopped people going out 5 shots a year if they so wish, always thought the object was tp get lower, but now all I hear is "I've got a flag dropping off so will get a shot back"

What we also hear now is "I've got half a dozen non-counters dropping off next, so have a great chance to come down over the next few weeks/months".
We used to hear things like "my exact is x.4 so I just need another 0.1 to get a shot back" and "my exact is x.5 so just need a decent score to come down a shot" all the time.
Such things have long been part of golf chatter.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

On my visit to England earlier this year I played with at least a dozen golf GM's and numerous Ordinary members, it was mentioned during the round and in Clubhouse all the time, feeling I got from the golf GM's was that they were keeping out of the discussion due to their position and not upsetting the fore's or the against.

Staying with one golf GM who had been a cat 1 golfer for 40 years, he thought it was a joke, another I stayed with whose handicap had increased by 8 shots since I the last time we played was embarrassed about his handicap, he was trying to put in GP rounds to reduce it, so kudos's to him.

You are never going to get a perfect System but the Old one at least stopped people going out 5 shots a year if they so wish, always thought the object was tp get lower, but now all I hear is "I've got a flag dropping off so will get a shot back"

Who initiated those conversations?

If a player has gone up 8 shots and can’t get back down they obviously need them.

It still sounds like it’s just older golfers not liking change.

Has anyone got any evidence of a player going up 15 to 20 shots since the introduction of WHS?

 

[Deleted member 36483]

On my visit to England earlier this year I played with at least a dozen golf GM's and numerous Ordinary members, it was mentioned during the round and in Clubhouse all the time, feeling I got from the golf GM's was that they were keeping out of the discussion due to their position and not upsetting the fore's or the against.

Staying with one golf GM who had been a cat 1 golfer for 40 years, he thought it was a joke, another I stayed with whose handicap had increased by 8 shots since I the last time we played was embarrassed about his handicap, he was trying to put in GP rounds to reduce it, so kudos's to him.

You are never going to get a perfect System but the Old one at least stopped people going out 5 shots a year if they so wish, always thought the object was tp get lower, but now all I hear is "I've got a flag dropping off so will get a shot back"

This sort of chat is consistent with my experience. The only view expressed to support it is the idea that it is worldwide and is accepted elsewhere but that clearly isn't the case.

Now we've had a survey. That, in itself, has brought the spotlight onto WHS for those who thought it must be ok. And people like yourself talking freely about your experience of it. I, myself, don't do forums but I have set that to one side hoping someone might be reading this stuff and it could possibly influence the situation. The survey will have made a lot of the 'must be ok people' realise it's ok to have an opinion and fill in the survey. The existence of the survey was well publicised in Ireland.

Momentum is therefore building.

I also think that the change at the top of the R&A may be significant. As a single figure golfer in a decent club he will be fully aware of the issues.

In short, I live in hope.

 

[PaulMdj]

You are encountering it here however.

And the topic has been given air more widely through publications such as Golf Monthly, National Club Golfer, and some podcasts. And they arent the prime movers, but referencing and coming from a context of the issue being a sufficiently widespread and live topic in British golf clubs. British based ones I will grant. I dont see it as a topic in American golf channels.

So a topic and controversy it is.
And likely amongst only a minority. But unsatisfactory for a minority is no excuse to dismiss it.
A great majority, I will accept, are entirely blind to the issue, and so have no beef with WHS. But that is to be expected. Roughly stating of course, but 10-16 handicappers are probably minimally or not at all affected. And this is a large proportion of amateur golfers. 18-24, a large group also, are probably gaining a little. But people dont really notice when something is to their advantage, and even less likely, be unhappy about it. 25+ a smaller group, and less affected.

But the single figure and plus range, are the disaffected group who feel agrieved. Just because they are only 10-15 % of golfers, the R&A or England Golf or the vested interest implementers of WHS cannot point to the remainder, and say "look at those 85%, they have no problem, so its a success".
If 5 or 10% of amateur golfers feel its unfair, then either it must be addressed, or, the claim that it is fair backed up. Either way, it is time for England golf to communicate openly and publicly on the matter to restore confidence. Doing nothing is absolutely unacceptable.

What is the biggest gripe for the disaffected group, because they were also the disaffected group under the UHS.

There are more single figure and + golfers around now than there’s ever been.

They have very little chance of winning any handicap comps under any system.

But a lot of clubs have now moved to Divisions to give every one a chance.

You see a lot of “poor us” from the low handicappers and they blame the WHS, but their issues seem to have been caused by low handicappers themselves.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

What is the biggest gripe for the disaffected group, because they were also the disaffected group under the UHS.

There are more single figure and + golfers around now than there’s ever been.

They have very little chance of winning any handicap comps under any system.

But a lot of clubs have now moved to Divisions to give every one a chance.

You see a lot of “poor us” from the low handicappers and they blame the WHS, but their issues seem to have been caused by low handicappers themselves.

Divisions have been part of handicap competitions for decades.

How have low handicappers caused this perceived issue?

 

[PaulMdj]

Divisions have been part of handicap competitions for decades.

How have low handicappers caused this perceived issue?

Moaning about less chance of winning now all these extra high handicappers have arrived.

I know of a few clubs around here in the NE who would just have a list of positions in handicap comps, now payout in Divisions.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

This sort of chat is consistent with my experience. The only view expressed to support it is the idea that it is worldwide and is accepted elsewhere but that clearly isn't the case.

Now we've had a survey. That, in itself, has brought the spotlight onto WHS for those who thought it must be ok. And people like yourself talking freely about your experience of it. I, myself, don't do forums but I have set that to one side hoping someone might be reading this stuff and it could possibly influence the situation. The survey will have made a lot of the 'must be ok people' realise it's ok to have an opinion and fill in the survey. The existence of the survey was well publicised in Ireland.

Momentum is therefore building.

I also think that the change at the top of the R&A may be significant. As a single figure golfer in a decent club he will be fully aware of the issues.

In short, I live in hope.

Who initiates the chat? Apart from a few months during its introduction I’ve not had a single person bring it up in conversation.

If you bring a topic up and rant about it, most people will just go along with it rather than arguing against, especially in social settings.

Momentum for what? The results of the poll on this forum, which is mostly your target demographic for being against WHS suggest there isn’t the level of negativity you suggest.

Don’t hold your breath. Any changes will be minor tweaks. There will be no going back to the old system.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

Moaning about less chance of winning now all these extra high handicappers have arrived.

I know of a few clubs around here in the NE who would just have a list of positions in handicap comps, now payout in Divisions.

I still don’t understand how some low handicappers moaning about something is the cause of it.

 

[PaulMdj]

I still don’t understand how some low handicappers moaning about something is the cause of it.

They complsined the loudest, how they weren’t going to enter comps, stop playing for the team, etc etc.

Clubs had to address the perceived issues. Some went to Divisions, some started best gross prize.

See this thread from earlier in the year:

GM Article - Handicap System Ruining Comps for Low Handicaps

https://www.golfmonthly.com/features/the-handicap-system-in-golf-has-ruined-club-competitions-its-the-only-sport-that-rewards-mediocrity?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0BMQABHffKu4vMZPJeuMesVgxWPSeky1zAOjVfd3YBRTkKY4FtAJwISDhJhQPKDw_aem_AcKpmg...

forums.golfmonthly.com

 

[Dunesman]

Who initiates the chat? Apart from a few months during its introduction I’ve not had a single person bring it up in conversation.

If you bring a topic up and rant about it, most people will just go along with it rather than arguing against, especially in social settings.

Momentum for what? The results of the poll on this forum, which is mostly your target demographic for being against WHS suggest there isn’t the level of negativity you suggest.

Don’t hold your breath. Any changes will be minor tweaks. There will be no going back to the old system.

You are hearing it here however.

And the topic has been given air more widely through publications such as Golf Monthly, National Club Golfer, and some podcasts. And they arent the prime movers, but referencing and coming from a context of the issue being a sufficiently widespread and live topic in British golf clubs. British based ones I will grant. I dont see it as a topic in American golf channels.

So a topic and controversy it is.
And likely amongst only a minority. But unsatisfactory for a minority is no excuse to dismiss it.
A great majority, I will accept, are entirely blind to the issue, and so have no beef with WHS. But that is to be expected. Roughly stating of course, but 10-16 handicappers are probably minimally or not at all affected. And this is a large proportion of amateur golfers. 18-24, a large group also, are probably gaining a little. But people dont really notice when something is to their advantage, and even less likely, be unhappy about it. 25+ a smaller group, and less affected.

But the single figure and plus range, are the disaffected group who feel agrieved. Just because they are only 10-15 % of golfers, the R&A or England Golf or the vested interest implementers of WHS cannot point to the remainder, and say "look at those 85%, they have no problem, so its a success".
If 5 or 10% of amateur golfers feel its unfair, then either it must be addressed, or, the claim that it is fair backed up. Either way, it is time for England golf to communicate openly and publicly on the matter to restore confidence. Doing nothing is absolutely unacceptable.

They are not looking for a return to the old system. Just a return to the more level playing field of the old system. One option, correcting what I consider the biggest contributor to the cut competitiveness of low handicapper : restore the limit of a 1 shot rise per year unless by special case ammendment of the committee. Stop handicaps increase 3 shots in a week or two for no actual change in a golfers form. This is the element jettisonned in WHS, and the one that made handicap competitions work for all previously.

Categories are not a fix. They are an admission that the system doesnt function as a whole. My club never had categories until this year. Introduced precisely because so many low handicappers had found, after 3 years of whs, that they could not compete. To some extent, they contributed to that also, trying to reduce handicap volatility as they do prize their low number. And having run with a batch of categorised competitions, while they have gotten their share of the prizes, it has also further vindicated their contention - without categories, they cannot compete. So the system is flawed and biased against them.

 

[AussieKB]

Who initiates the chat? Apart from a few months during its introduction I’ve not had a single person bring it up in conversation.

If you bring a topic up and rant about it, most people will just go along with it rather than arguing against, especially in social settings.

Momentum for what? The results of the poll on this forum, which is mostly your target demographic for being against WHS suggest there isn’t the level of negativity you suggest.

Don’t hold your breath. Any changes will be minor tweaks. There will be no going back to the old system.

A few months.....try years here in OZ and it is brought up all the time.

As for tweaks.....we have had at least 5 so far since the introduction, you were lucky to not start with what we got for the US system, was not long before the OZ Officials realised there was a major flaw's in it.

 

[Dunesman]

A few months.....try years here in OZ and it is brought up all the time.

As for tweaks.....we have had at least 5 so far since the introduction, you were lucky to not start with what we got for the US system, was not long before the OZ Officials realised there was a major flaw's in it.

Well at least you have a body which is recognising that and has modified it, which is more than we have.
What woukd have been the key changes ? Did they improve it ? What is your handicap multiplier for singles, and what are your caps or cap ?

 

[AussieKB]

Well at least you have a body which is recognising that and has modified it, which is more than we have.
What woukd have been the key changes ? Did they improve it ? What is your handicap multiplier for singles, and what are your caps or cap ?

When it first came in.

Best 10 scores out of 20, now 8 of 20.
No restriction on how far you go out, now 5 shots in a year.
93% was introduced as high handicaps were winning everything, still are.
Soft cap has been introduced to stop people going out to fast.
CR-Par was introduced.
Introduced Exceptional Net Score where if you are 7 shots better you lose a shot for a year.

I await the next change.....but they will never revert back as it would admit they were wrong.

 

[AussieKB]

Just checked today's results and 46 points won, handicap 23, so as you can see after 4 years it has not got any better for a single figure golfer.

 

[Dunesman]

Just checked today's results and 46 points won, handicap 23, so as you can see after 4 years it has not got any better for a single figure golfer.

Was there no cap at all originally, and did people rise 5 shots in half a dozen rounds in a fortnight ? Interesting that you are 93%. Was it previously 95% or 100% ?

 

[Dunesman]

Just checked today's results and 46 points won, handicap 23, so as you can see after 4 years it has not got any better for a single figure golfer.

Thats a single case, and I guess that can happen, even if the system were not an issue. Its in the big picture that things are askew. But maybe that is why regional authorities see nothing wrong. They have the big data. But big data is only scores. They cannot discriminate in that data the actual placings in competitions, so are blind to the problem as experienced by the average golfer playing club competitions. Of course England Golf will see nothing wrong if they are only looking at the statistics of handicaps in isolation. The golfers themselves are not looking at such one dimensional statistical analysis, but at results sheets on their club noticeboards. Thats where the problem is seen. Dont look at comletition results, and of course you can see we dont see any problem with competituo results !

 

[Mandofred]

Stop playing for prizes/money. If I play in a Medal, I just assume I'm not going to win and would have to have a heck of round to even get in the money. My goal is just to play as well as possible and then look later to see how I did against all the other players. I don't like playing for money at any time, but it's just what you have to do here. Get rid of the prizes/money....would there still be as much of an issue with people worrying about other players?

I'd be more than happy just to have a number of different league tables for things like Medals.