Official WHS Survey

[Dunesman]

Wow. Totally different handicap profile in the USA compared to us. 31% of men are single figure or better ! Only 21% are 20 or higher. Clearly the same competition factor cannot be used here as there.

 

[Dunesman]

So many potential reasons for that but I'll just mention one.

I have played with quite a few low handicap Americans. With the exception of one of them they have been not very good, at least not what you'd expect based on handicap. However most of them don't take their scoring round as seriously as we would. They have a habit of scoring what they should have scored on each hole rather than what they actually scored. Not cheating as they obviously don't think it matters too much. So, as a result, not too many net double bogeys skewing things.

Yes quite possibly you are right. Whatever the reasons though, a totally different handicap distribution in a field is going to have to be treated differently to level. As much as the cap, changing the 95% could address that, so possibly my club is on the right path on that one.

 

[RichA]

Wow. Totally different handicap profile in the USA compared to us. 31% of men are single figure or better ! Only 21% are 20 or higher. Clearly the same competition factor cannot be used here as there.
View attachment 55478

Is it a lazy stereotype to think maybe they have a bit more of a "good good" culture around the greens in social rounds and less of a culture of weekly competitions played to the rules?
Genuine question.

 

[Dunesman]

Is it a lazy stereotype to think maybe they have a bit more of a "good good" culture around the greens in social rounds and less of a culture of weekly competitions played to the rules?
Genuine question.

Possibly valid. My point is more regardless the root cause, the lower handicaps are not going to scale in the same way when factored to a mixed field competition. For the profile above, 0.95 may work just fine. But our mistake to have imported the same one when we have a different distribution. As above, Australia have already modified theirs. Why not England ?

 

[Deleted member 36483]

Possibly valid. My point is more regardless the root cause, the lower handicaps are not going to scale in the same way when factored to a mixed field competition. For the profile above, 0.95 may work just fine. But out mistake to have imported the same one when we have a different distribution. As above, Australia have already modified theirs. Why on England ?

I don't buy the idea that all golfers are equally inconsistent at a given handicap. There are those who are consistently bogeying every hole and those who have pars, birdies and dings and yet both could be off 18 in this WHS.

Surely this application of a percentage decrease relies on even distribution?

I believe, the consistent players, rather than just the low handicappers, are those who are uncompetitive in WHS.

 

[D-S]

Is it a lazy stereotype to think maybe they have a bit more of a "good good" culture around the greens in social rounds and less of a culture of weekly competitions played to the rules?
Genuine question.

As I have stated many a time, with ‘most likely score’ in place in the US scoring ends up being whatever the player wants it to be.
As their is an element of judgement in both the length and the difficulty in determining how many shots are recorded on incomplete/not holed out holes, particularly in 4BB matchplay and strokeplay, that players just say ‘put me down for an ‘x’.
A lot of players I have played with seem just to go for birdies all the time and pick up if they don’t make it and put down seemingly any old score. In our terms it is a farce but if you’re not playing competitive golf using your handicap I suppose it doesn’t matter.
It is why I am dead set against any introduction over here.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Is it a lazy stereotype to think maybe they have a bit more of a "good good" culture around the greens in social rounds and less of a culture of weekly competitions played to the rules?
Genuine question.

I had a friend who lived in the USA for a good spell late 80s and early 90s
Anecdote Alert.
He said to me (I have warned you)
"If you as 5-handicapper went to USA and played with chaps without telling them your handicap. They see you hit 12 greens in regulation, make 2 birdies, but drop 7 shots on the other 6 holes. They will be telling folks they played with a scratch guy today."

 

[RichA]

I had a friend who lived in the USA for a good spell late 80s and early 90s
Anecdote Alert.
He said to me (I have warned you)
"If you as 5-handicapper went to USA and played with chaps without telling them your handicap. They see you hit 12 greens in regulation, make 2 birdies, but drop 7 shots on the other 6 holes. They will be telling folks they played with a scratch guy today."

Good enough for me. I'll be telling my pals in the morning that I once played with a scratch guy.

 

[RichA]

As I have stated many a time, with ‘most likely score’ in place in the US scoring ends up being whatever the player wants it to be.
As their is an element of judgement in both the length and the difficulty in determining how many shots are recorded on incomplete/not holed out holes, particularly in 4BB matchplay and strokeplay, that players just say ‘put me down for an ‘x’.
A lot of players I have played with seem just to go for birdies all the time and pick up if they don’t make it and put down seemingly any old score. In our terms it is a farce but if you’re not playing competitive golf using your handicap I suppose it doesn’t matter.
It is why I am dead set against any introduction over here.

So pick a number you'd like as your handicap then just record that you play to it every time?
Is there just much less of a culture of weekly comps?

 

[wjemather]

As I understood it, Australia was an early adopter and went through 6 iterations before getting to what we know as WHS.

@AussieKB will clarify hopefully

Australia adopted the old USGA system (starting April 2010) and made adaptations over several years. What they ended up with is the closest of the old handicap systems to WHS, however they retained several features of their old system when WHS came in (January 2020) so in many respects it feels closer to that than it does to what we recognise as WHS.

 

[D-S]

So pick a number you'd like as your handicap then just record that you play to it every time?
Is there just much less of a culture of weekly comps?

Very much so - played with quite a few members there who are club members who have never played a competition in their lives.

We are getting more and more of those here too, with a few just seeing the EG App as some sort of score tracker, not to be taken seriously. So much so when we had some serious breaches which required disciplinary action, the suggestion of banning them from comps for a period was laughed off as they didn't enter them anyway.

Once you allow players to estimate how far their ball was away from the hole was when they picked it up or their partner hit it back to them (5 feet or less, 5 feet to 60 feet, 60 feet or more) and the number of strokes to add "depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player" then you allow significant leeway as I say especially in 4BB matchplay and stroke play but also singles matchplay.

 

[AussieKB]

Australia adopted the old USGA system and made adaptations over several years. What they ended up with is the closest of the old handicap systems to WHS, however they retained several features of their old system when WHS came in so in many respects it feels closer to that than it does to what we recognise as WHS.

In what way ????? like I have said many times I have lived through this, we were told it is the WHS, but they soon found out how bad it is, so all those changes were made, and yes you could create a new handicap in a number of weeks.

I remember telling an English Official about it on one of my trips to England, he could not believe it, so I had to show him on the internet my handicap record and a few of my mates, to say he was astonished would be an understatement.

On the website they even had system where if you put in how many stableford points you scored in the next round what your new handicap would be, so people new what they needed to go up or down, this was removed after a few months, I wonder why ?

 

[badgergm]

Possibly valid. My point is more regardless the root cause, the lower handicaps are not going to scale in the same way when factored to a mixed field competition. For the profile above, 0.95 may work just fine. But our mistake to have imported the same one when we have a different distribution. As above, Australia have already modified theirs. Why not England ?

It’s well known that 0.95 doesnt work for large fields with many high handicappers. Go the whole hog and have the % calculated on a comp by comp basis after all cards taken out. And yes if that means 100% for small fields then so be it.
More complicated obviously but few understand it properly now so wouldn’t make any difference.

 

[Slab]

Bandit won yesterday with 48 points
Thought through what players of various handicaps would have to do to get that total, its not happening

Whs isn't really at fault, it's the player who's at fault

Just because you can fake your handicap doesn't mean you should

What golf lacks is a history of heavy policing activity, instead relying way to much rigorous rules and player integrity

The times are changing and golf will need to play catch up

 

[Deleted member 36483]

In what way ????? like I have said many times I have lived through this, we were told it is the WHS, but they soon found out how bad it is, so all those changes were made, and yes you could create a new handicap in a number of weeks.

I remember telling an English Official about it on one of my trips to England, he could not believe it, so I had to show him on the internet my handicap record and a few of my mates, to say he was astonished would be an understatement.

On the website they even had system where if you put in how many stableford points you scored in the next round what your new handicap would be, so people new what they needed to go up or down, this was removed after a few months, I wonder why ?

Yes, I thought that's what you'd said. I suppose people read what they want to read. @wjemather will be along to explain his interpretation no doubt.

 

[rulefan]

Bandit won yesterday with 48 points

A 'known' bandit, a newish player or just a player with his day in the sun?

 

[wjemather]

In what way ????? like I have said many times I have lived through this, we were told it is the WHS...

Yes, I thought that's what you'd said. I suppose people read what they want to read. @wjemather will be along to explain his interpretation no doubt.

GA first adopted their 'new' handicap system in April 2010. It evolved to the full version in January 2014 (when Slope could finally be adopted after courses had been rated).

WHS was first conceived in 2011. GA were among the first authorities to adopt it, in January 2020. There were few differences between WHS (as implemented in Australia) and the GA system. The similarity may cause confusion.

 

[rulefan]

In what way ????? like I have said many times I have lived through this, we were told it is the WHS, but they soon found out how bad it is, so all those changes were made, and yes you could create a new handicap in a number of weeks.

I remember telling an English Official about it on one of my trips to England, he could not believe it, so I had to show him on the internet my handicap record and a few of my mates, to say he was astonished would be an understatement.

Re wjem's response above, when did all this happen?

 

[clubchamp98]

A 'known' bandit, a newish player or just a player with his day in the sun?

Is it “ bandit” or is it blatant cheat.?

 

[AussieKB]

Re wjem's response above, when did all this happen?

Australian golf handicap system to be fine-tuned - Aussie Golfer

Aussie Golfer: Your hub for Australian golf news, reviews, tips, and golfing fun - your independent source for everything Down Under golf.

aussiegolfer.com.au

makes interesting reading.