Official WHS Survey

[Banchory Buddha]

Given I'd already gone through the results, cross-checking your table took seconds.

Among other things, and contrary to your claims, the results showed:
Division 3 players did not win "almost every" one-round trophy over the last 2 years; they won fewer than half. [1]
Division 1 players did not have no chance of winning; they returned a top 5 score overall in almost every competition, while winning several and losing out on countback in others.[2]
Division 1 players did not win zero trophies over the last 2 years.[3]
There were very few exceptional scores that might be considered unattainable by really low handicappers.[4]
There were no "tough to beat 30 handicappers".[5]
Division 1 is not always by far the largest division.[6]

[1]Didn't claim they did - I said Div 1 hadn't won any
[2]Jack Nicklaus used to say if he didn't win, he'd lost, he wasn't interested in second, how does that translate to a top 5? They won zero trophies for two years as ~ suspiciously ~ high handicaps didn't score as well when no silverware on the line
[3]You did in fairness point out 2 from 2023, as I then pointed out (which is when you shut up), one had gone from a 3 in 2022 to a 9, and is now a 3 again, he was a massive bandit off 9, he knew it, everyone knew it, but WHS goes with "form" and he was in a slump, "form" is absolutely the wrong target. The other was a 10 who also got down to 4 this year.....so
[4] You're just trolling now if you're saying 60s and 61s are attainable, even 63 or 64 is out of reach of all but the highest div 1 players. A nonsense statement
[5] zat richt min? Ye ken my club better than me? OK, richt enuch
[6]Div 3 is the smallest by far in all but one week, yet has more wins than the majority of the field. Remember when you tried to claim that they should win more often because there's more of them? Utter sharn that like

 

[wjemather]

[1]Didn't claim they did - I said Div 1 hadn't won any
[2]Jack Nicklaus used to say if he didn't win, he'd lost, he wasn't interested in second, how does that translate to a top 5? They won zero trophies for two years as ~ suspiciously ~ high handicaps didn't score as well when no silverware on the line
[3]You did in fairness point out 2 from 2023, as I then pointed out (which is when you shut up), one had gone from a 3 in 2022 to a 9, and is now a 3 again, he was a massive bandit off 9, he knew it, everyone knew it, but WHS goes with "form" and he was in a slump, "form" is absolutely the wrong target. The other was a 10 who also got down to 4 this year.....so
[4] You're just trolling now if you're saying 60s and 61s are attainable, even 63 or 64 is out of reach of all but the highest div 1 players. A nonsense statement
[5] zat richt min? Ye ken my club better than me? OK, richt enuch
[6]Div 3 is the smallest by far in all but one week, yet has more wins than the majority of the field. Remember when you tried to claim that they should win more often because there's more of them? Utter sharn that like

[1] "Two years now at my away club every single one round trophy has been won by a division 3 player" #295; "just about every one won by category 3" #512
[2] You're deflecting. If you're scoring within a stroke or two of the winning score, you almost certainly have a chance of winning.
[3] You're deflecting. Paint it how you like, division 1 players did win; claiming they were bandits or coming out of a slump is a pretty weak response; and I found no evidence of him playing off 3 in 2022.
[4] Banchory has a low Par and CR. Mid-60s net scores are far from unattainable for a scratch player, but they'd have to score well, not just a little better than average.
[5]
[6] You're deflecting. The size of division 3 is irrelevant to your claim about the size of division 1.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

[1] "Two years now at my away club every single one round trophy has been won by a division 3 player" #295; "just about every one won by category 3" #512
[2] You're deflecting. If you're scoring within a stroke or two of the winning score, you almost certainly have a chance of winning.
[3] You're deflecting. Paint it how you like, division 1 players did win; claiming they were bandits or coming out of a slump is a pretty weak response; and I found no evidence of him playing off 3 in 2022.
[4] Banchory has a low Par and CR. Mid-60s net scores are far from unattainable for a scratch player, but they'd have to score well, not just a little better than average.
[5]
[6] You're deflecting. The size of division 3 is irrelevant to your claim about the size of division 1.

May I suggest that you and banchory create a separate thread for the two of you to discuss handbags?

 

[abjectplop]

May I suggest that you and banchory create a separate thread for the two of you to discuss handbags?

Perhaps a charity 36 hole match using their official WHS handicap indexes to settle this?!

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Perhaps a charity 36 hole match using their official WHS handicap indexes to settle this?!

Agreed, we'll play at banchory, better give him home field advantage, he knows the place far better than I do

 

[Banchory Buddha]

[1] "Two years now at my away club every single one round trophy has been won by a division 3 player" #295; "just about every one won by category 3" #512
[2] You're deflecting. If you're scoring within a stroke or two of the winning score, you almost certainly have a chance of winning.
[3] You're deflecting. Paint it how you like, division 1 players did win; claiming they were bandits or coming out of a slump is a pretty weak response; and I found no evidence of him playing off 3 in 2022.
[4] Banchory has a low Par and CR. Mid-60s net scores are far from unattainable for a scratch player, but they'd have to score well, not just a little better than average.
[5]
[6] You're deflecting. The size of division 3 is irrelevant to your claim about the size of division 1.

When it comes to strawmen, you're worzel gumidge & the one from wizard of oz rolled into one..

Congrats, the gullible fall for this schtick, others look at the facts

 

[Dunesman]

If you are in the majority then maybe Golf Ireland will buck the trend and reverse the system. After all, you pay towards their existence, you will surely have that power. Get organised, get it changed.

This is a question than interests me for all regions. What golfers, not administrators, were driving the switch to WHS? We pay England Golf. If even only a third, or 20%, or 10% consider this a bad job, then it is a very poor job. Why did they do it ? To what extent can we demand a fix (as stated elsewhere, I dont think much is needed to effect a satisfactory fix). A survey is fine. It goes into a black hole, and the experts and admins will decide to admit their mistake, implement a correction. Or will pay it lip service, not admit the screw up, and do nothing. That would be unacceptable.
If they came back saying "Our survey says, 2/3 of members favour the change. Great success", then they should all be removed from office.

 

[PaulMdj]

This is a question than interests me for all regions. What golfers, not administrators, were driving the switch to WHS? We pay England Golf. If even only a third, or 20%, or 10% consider this a bad job, then it is a very poor job. Why did they do it ? To what extent can we demand a fix (as stated elsewhere, I dont think much is needed to effect a satisfactory fix). A survey is fine. It goes into a black hole, and the experts and admins will decide to admit their mistake, implement a correction. Or will pay it lip service, not admit the screw up, and do nothing. That would be unacceptable.
If they came back saying "Our survey says, 2/3 of members favour the change. Great success", then they should all be removed from office.

That’s the problem with any survey though, the majority that tend to fill them out are normally those at the extremes of opinions.

Then both sides try to claim the uninterested as proof to their side of the argument.

 

[RichA]

That’s the problem with any survey though, the majority that tend to fill them out are normally those at the extremes of opinions.

Then both sides try to claim the uninterested as proof to their side of the argument.

Although three quarters who voted in our poll were neutral or not that bothered. And hopefully nobody really thinks it's proof of anything.
As for the actual England Golf survey, who's voting in that? I didn't get an email or letter, am not a regular visitor to their website and haven't seen or heard reference to it at a golf club. I wouldn't have known if not for this forum.

 

[clubchamp98]

Although three quarters who voted in our poll were neutral or not that bothered. And hopefully nobody really thinks it's proof of anything.
As for the actual England Golf survey, who's voting in that? I didn't get an email or letter, am not a regular visitor to their website and haven't seen or heard reference to it at a golf club. I wouldn't have known if not for this forum.

Exactly it’s not been communicated very well.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

Exactly it’s not been communicated very well.

Enough are unhappy for it to matter. Survey hopefully will justify a major overhaul.

If you don't think there's a problem then I would suggest doing a tour of clubs and speaking to pros and members.

 

[clubchamp98]

Enough are unhappy for it to matter. Survey hopefully will justify a major overhaul.

If you don't think there's a problem then I would suggest doing a tour of clubs and speaking to pros and members.

I work on golf courses all over the country.
I know there’s a problem just talking to the members on the courses.

But there are some who are in the dark or just don’t care.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

I work on golf courses all over the country.
I know there’s a problem just talking to the members on the courses.

But there are some who are in the dark or just don’t care.

Some of those who say they don't care seem to care enough to wade into the discussion on here. Just to say they don't care. If they really didn't care then they wouldn't care if it was fixed and focus on stuff they do care about.

 

[wjemather]

As for the actual England Golf survey, who's voting in that? I didn't get an email or letter, am not a regular visitor to their website and haven't seen or heard reference to it at a golf club. I wouldn't have known if not for this forum.

Exactly it’s not been communicated very well.

It was an R&A/USGA survey gathering opinions from all over the world. EG publicised it on their website, socials and in an email newsletter to players, and also asked counties & clubs to include it in their comms to members; I assume other national authorities did the same/similar.

 

[clubchamp98]

Some of those who say they don't care seem to care enough to wade into the discussion on here. Just to say they don't care. If they really didn't care then they wouldn't care if it was fixed and focus on stuff they do care about.

Yes I would have thought anyone who visits a golf forum would have an opinion on the mess were in with WHS.

 

[RichA]

Some peoples' opinion is that it's not in a mess, but some others choose not to hear that and just keep at it like they might change peoples' minds if it's rammed far enough down their throats, repeatedly.

 

[clubchamp98]

Some peoples' opinion is that it's not in a mess, but some others choose not to hear that and just keep at it like they might change peoples' minds if it's rammed far enough down their throats, repeatedly.

Fair point.
But that’s true the other way as well.

 

[RichA]

Fair point.
But that’s true the other way as well.

I don't actually feel particularly strongly. While you do, you are clearly not an extremist.
I only got involved as a reaction to the persistent extreme arguments and exaggeration by others. In my experience, I still haven't heard anyone talking about it at a golf club.

 

[rulefan]

I have never encountered it as a topic of conversation at the many clubs I have visited in my County. When I have raised it out of interest, the comments have been primarily re GP and very occasionally (CR-par) and PCC.

 

[clubchamp98]

I have never encountered it as a topic of conversation at many clubs I have visited in my County. When I have raised it out of interest, the comments have been primarily re GP and very occasionally (CR-par) and PCC.

I think GP cards are the biggest problem.
Something needs to change.
But they are a big part of the system.