Official WHS Survey

[Yeomanterry]

At the age of 70 I returned to golf after 20 years. I started Oct 2024 as a 40 handicap. I a now playing off 28 handicap. This took the club to cut me 5 then 2 then again 2 off my handicap. I am still capable of coming in the top 3 in competitions, the WHS never came near cutting my handicap fast enough. I am still improving. I feel it does not lower your handicap enough. Many golf courses down here in South Devon only have a handicap meeting once a year? We play against them and we are coming up against 32 handicappers parring and birdying holes (Gross).

 

[Deleted member 36483]

One of the issues is that Handicap Committees have now is a much more frequent task in ensuring the score submissions from visitors via the EG App are correct. Pre App the number of away supplementary scores was just about 0.
This week alone we have had to write to 3 other clubs advising them that their members played our course and either their attester of their member”s score played and did not pay a green fee or, more likely, was not present.
We duly mark them as matchplay and trust the clubs to act properly in educating their members but we have repeat offenders so this obviously is not working or not happening.
This is a typical week with iGolfers being the most frequent offenders - I don’t know the amount of iGolfers vs other clubs visiting so I cannot say if they are worse or there are just more of them.

This is a deal of work. We, as far as I am aware, have never had another club advising us of misdemeanours of our players in attestation of GP scores so either they are all perfect (extremely unlikely) or the clubs are simply not checking.

This is not necessary handicap manipulation but some of it may well be. The oversight required is in reality far too much for most clubs so this ‘misbehaviour’ will continue until more security or a change in protocol is introduced.

What about choosing to do a GP score in a 25mph wind?

 

[D-S]

What about choosing to do a GP score in a 25mph wind?

If your attester isn’t there, who cares about the weather?

 

[Banchory Buddha]

As my age goes up and infirmity gets worse, my ability goes down; primarily but not exclusively because the distance I can hit a ball goes down.
The UHS simply couldn't keep pace.
WHS allows my inability to be recognised more rapidly and accurately.
I know many older players, once some have overcome their 'vanity', have welcomed the extra strokes. Certainly, having just retired from the handicap committee, I experienced only a couple of complaints since WHS was introduced.
Incidentally, my club has always run a tight ship re general play scores. But I do recognise this is a major problem elsewhere and seemingly the EG app (which we don't use) is a major contributor.

Sorry, this is nonsense, ten rounds and you're up a shot, annual review and.ypu could have gone up another two or three. No one. Deteriorates at the speed you're.suggesting, total red.herring

As for your handicap committee comment, do you really expect a plethora of players writing to you about something you can do nothing about? Quite astonishing you had any complaints imo. As hcap sec at my club, iv had many complaints, none of them in writing or official, for that simple reason, plus most folks don't like to go as far as that

 

[Banchory Buddha]

It's inaccurate to say that conclusions based on detailed statistical analysis of massive amounts of real world data are "assumptions".

The evidence demonstrates that WHS is far more equitable the UHS was - even your own club's competition results show this to be the case.

Ah you're back to my away club, and erroneously analysing them, it says a lot about you that you can be that wrong, but you keep doing you, it's pointless.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

The old system only worked for low handicappers. WHS has revived the interest (both in the game and competitively) of many golfers that had been lost largely due to the failings of the old system.

Utter horseradish

COVID boosted the game, membership numbers went way up

Conversely active competitive numbers have gone way down, my own club had record low numbers this year despite membership levels not seen since the 80sboom

WHS has been a disaster

 

[C7usk]

5 is the hard cap

In 2022 I went from 4 to 8 to 4. An absolute joke, I'd just lost my putting and needed to work on it, underlying I was still a 4 or a 5 and so it proved. To be given 8 shots for a while after so few cards was a joke

That is a very large hcp increase for a low capper... I wonder what you would've went up under the old system and if you would've got down again. I presume you had a lot of GP cards in there..

 

[wjemather]

Ah you're back to my away club, and erroneously analysing them, it says a lot about you that you can be that wrong, but you keep doing you, it's pointless.

You made numerous claims about the comps and results at your away club.
Turned out they were all lies.
I was not surprised.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

You made numerous claims about the comps and results at your away club.
Turned out they were all lies.
I was not surprised.

Yes or no answer please. Does WHS provide you with some sort of income?

 

[IanM]

I've never heard of a golfer who gave up golf because of the failings of old handicap system.

BUT, I know many who no longer play in Opens since whs.

If you claim, BB was lying, specifics might help

 

[Banchory Buddha]

That is a very large hcp increase for a low capper... I wonder what you would've went up under the old system and if you would've got down again. I presume you had a lot of GP cards in there..

I did 4 GP cards first year of WHS (all counters) and have not entered one since.

It's not a big increase when only your last 20 rounds count. If there's a bad April and May like this year then it's even more feasible with the useless PCC

 

[Banchory Buddha]

You made numerous claims about the comps and results at your away club.
Turned out they were all lies.
I was not surprised.

Turned out I was correct, not one single one-round comp won by a single digit player this year or last, just about every one won by category 3 (<19)

It's remarkable that you looked at our results, and couldn't even work that out, so we can all imagine how accurate your intangible witterings are

 

[Banchory Buddha]

If you claim, BB was lying, specifics might help

He's wrong. But he can give me the names of the competitions and I'll cross check as he's done such steady work

 

[wjemather]

If you claim, BB was lying, specifics might help

This was covered earlier in this (I think) thread.

All overall winners in comps this year have been from division 3 - false.
Division 1 is always by far the largest - false (division 2 has generally been significantly larger than division 1 this year, although boundaries have been moved down a couple of strokes).
Division 1 players have no chance of winning - false (they achieved the winning score in 8/22 Saturday (and one Sunday) comps this year, and only a handful of comps saw an exceptional score)
"Tough to beat the 30 handicappers" - the highest winning PH in the sampled comps was 25 (which equates to HI of 24.7 or lower)
Etc.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

If your attester isn’t there, who cares about the weather?

Here's the rub. Attester or player, neither can be trusted, or mistrusted, when the system is so flakey. There is very little ownership of WHS amongst golfers in Ireland and I suspect across the UK. Given that lack of trust in the system you get two types of so called cheats. Firstly those who are trying to take advantage for their own gain and secondly those who are trying to make a point in the hope that the system will be binned. Never before has the latter happened in my lifetime but it is happening...

It's another post office scandal but with less serious consequences, nevertheless there are consequences and many people have had the joy of their golf life taken away from them.

 

[wjemather]

Yes or no answer please. Does WHS provide you with some sort of income?

No.
My only golf-related work is as a club & county (unpaid) volunteer.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

At the age of 70 I returned to golf after 20 years. I started Oct 2024 as a 40 handicap. I a now playing off 28 handicap. This took the club to cut me 5 then 2 then again 2 off my handicap. I am still capable of coming in the top 3 in competitions, the WHS never came near cutting my handicap fast enough. I am still improving. I feel it does not lower your handicap enough. Many golf courses down here in South Devon only have a handicap meeting once a year? We play against them and we are coming up against 32 handicappers parring and birdying holes (Gross).

Capable players who don't practice end up with ridiculous handicaps.

Take the guy who can bogey 15 holes but is a bit wayward and fails to complete the the other 3 holes. He gets 15 for the 15 holes he completes and, assuming he was getting a shot at the other 3, he gets another 9. So someone who looks like no worse than an 18 handicapper if he could be bothered to practice a little is given 24 shots. In the old days a person, with any wit at all, would have given him 18 max and told him he should see the pro for a lesson.

Let's take this awarding of net double bogey for handicap purposes further.

Imagine a scratch and 1 handicapper playing over a period. Scratch pars every hole and always wins 1 up against the 1 handicapper who messes up index 1 every time. Their match is a side bet to putting in a card. They play and score exactly the same for 20 rounds. The 1 handicapper is now 3 because he was awarded a net double bogey for that index 1 mess up. He now has 2 shots on the other 17 holes and is now winning 1 up.

The effect of providing a net double bogey is that it allows the player to continue to play that hole badly but his score is adjusted upwards for the holes he does play well.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

This was covered earlier in this (I think) thread.

All overall winners in comps this year have been from division 3 - false.
Division 1 is always by far the largest - false (division 2 has generally been significantly larger than division 1 this year, although boundaries have been moved down a couple of strokes).
Division 1 players have no chance of winning - false (they achieved the winning score in 8/22 Saturday (and one Sunday) comps this year, and only a handful of comps saw an exceptional score)
"Tough to beat the 30 handicappers" - the highest winning PH in the sampled comps was 25 (which equates to HI of 24.7 or lower)
Etc.

Quite an incredible revision of history.

I asked for the trophies these section one players won, you've trotted out medal rounds presumably? Not a single trophy
Isn't it funny that when one round pots are up for grabs, a section 3 guy always "finds his game"

Your Sunday medal (there's only one all year) another example of your lies, not a trophy round and won by a section 2 player. Brilliant stuff Mr weather

The only thing you've got right is that section one has now been shrunk a little, the assistant pro is now adjusting sections to try to even up the sweep sections as - and here's the thing - there were too many complaints from low guys that there was not only no point trying to win trophies, you couldn't even win sweeps when section 1 ran to 11 or 12 handicaps

What I am pleased you've posted tho, is such a steaming pile , it puts the rest of your posts into perspective. Even when talking about one of my own golf clubs, you know better than I do, and then 'prove' it by being completely wrong


You really are one of the most arrogant boors I think I've ever come across on an online forum, and I've been on many since the turn of the century and seen them all

 

[rulefan]

I asked for the trophies these section one players won, you've trotted out medal rounds presumably? Not a single trophy
Isn't it funny that when one round pots are up for grabs, a section 3 guy always "finds his game"

Are your 'medal rounds' not also 'one round pots'?
What sort of scores are winning these comps?
Is it the same player(s) winning all the time?
Are your 'trophy' comps matchplay or strokeplay?

 

[C7usk]

Capable players who don't practice end up with ridiculous handicaps.

Take the guy who can bogey 15 holes but is a bit wayward and fails to complete the the other 3 holes. He gets 15 for the 15 holes he completes and, assuming he was getting a shot at the other 3, he gets another 9. So someone who looks like no worse than an 18 handicapper if he could be bothered to practice a little is given 24 shots. In the old days a person, with any wit at all, would have given him 18 max and told him he should see the pro for a lesson.

Let's take this awarding of net double bogey for handicap purposes further.

Imagine a scratch and 1 handicapper playing over a period. Scratch pars every hole and always wins 1 up against the 1 handicapper who messes up index 1 every time. Their match is a side bet to putting in a card. They play and score exactly the same for 20 rounds. The 1 handicapper is now 3 because he was awarded a net double bogey for that index 1 mess up. He now has 2 shots on the other 17 holes and is now winning 1 up.

The effect of providing a net double bogey is that it allows the player to continue to play that hole badly but his score is adjusted upwards for the holes he does play well.

Am confused.. What would the 1 capper be off on the old system then? Presumably around 3 also.. As he would consistently be hitting 3,4 or 5 over par each of those 20rnds..Or you making out he's in the buffer everytime and therefore still off 1?..