Official WHS Survey

[IanMac]

As usual another thread drifts away from its topic. What does Junior participation have to do with WHS??

Some people just grab any stone they can to throw at the perceived glass houses of others.

There will be no concensus on this topic - the positions are too entrenched.

But as there has been drift I'll add my view on Juniors.

They should be encouraged to participate in competitions based on their ability not age.

It doesn't sit right with me that they need to achieve a certain level of handicap when older players with more limited skills
can play.

And the lower fees argument is not valid. Do clubs with staggered fees for "younger" adults exclude their participation until they pay the full fee?

Juniors are the future and any club that doesn't 100% embrace that is short sighted in my opinion.

Do you believe WHS has been good for junior golf?

 

[Backache]

And the lower fees argument is not valid. Do clubs with staggered fees for "younger" adults exclude their participation until they pay the full fee?

Juniors are the future and any club that doesn't 100% embrace that is short sighted in my opinion.

We have a lot of adults who pay reduced rates because they can't afford the full rate, they lose some tee entitlement.

I don't think it ridiculous that children who tend to have different time availability because of school hours and who pay a lot less should have some tee time restriction.

Obviously different clubs have different pressures there is not an absolute answer that suits everyone, but having some restrictions on juniors is not intrinsically outdated or unreasonable

 

[wjemather]

What are you talking about ?? Your insurance would say “ it’s your fault I think”

Do you think all low cappers are honest.
There is manipulation at this level just to get in high profile events then stopping genuine low men getting in.

It’s why EG will ballot out people with GP cards in their top 8 scores if oversubscribed in elite events.
It is individual cheating but WHS has made it so much easier for the “ scumbags “ to do it!

Once again - this is a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of EG elite event policy.

 

[PaulMdj]

While I agree to some extent.

You can’t have juniors taking comp slots before full members if the tee sheet is full. ( usually is at ours.)


Juniors up to 16 are free. Then goes up with age.
Members £1400 .
So no way a junior should get a comp spot before a full member.

You’re changing the goal posts! We were discussing Cat 1 Juniors, how many do you have in your Club!

Taking it to extremes proves nothing.

Whether an insurance company does or does not pay out is also irrelevant, the issue is the low lifes with no values or standards.

 

[PaulMdj]

Do you believe WHS has been good for junior golf?

Absolutely, more Junior members and 3 times as many entering Junior Comps.

WHS has had no impact on our Club rules and them entering Club Comps.

 

[Dunesman]

Once again - this is a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of EG elite event policy.

You may well be correct, but the fine print doesnt really matter in the wider perception of what they did, not that it is relevant to but even very few in an already small minority that enter elite national tournaments. The nub is that EG, while on the one hand promoting the submitting of general play and even approximate/estimated/unfinished cards for the rest of us, explicitly downgraded them compared to cards submitted in competition for entry to their top competitions. When the very mood among many regular golfers is concern that gp cards are open to abuse, and that trust in handicaps is refuced by the gp card process.
The hypocrisy perception of EG is indefensible. And it was a very badly judged PR move.

 

[IanMac]

Once again - this is a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of EG elite event policy.

Fair enough, he hasn't nailed the details, but the sentiment still remains. EG doesn't trust the handicap system.

 

[The Fader]

Do you believe WHS has been good for junior golf?

I have no idea. It's almost 15 years since my lads finished as juniors, so I have little involvement these days.

All I see is an increasing number of juniors at my club which is down to proactive actions by the club and has nothing to do with WHS. Almost without exception the ones I cross paths with are polite and have good golfing etiquette. Exactly what you want from your members. And they are all anxious to get lower handicaps than their mates. Not something that the naysayers would have you believe about all adult golfers!!

No need to ask you the same question.

 

[wjemather]

Fair enough, he hasn't nailed the details, but the sentiment still remains. EG doesn't trust the handicap system.

No, they don't trust a very small number of golfers.

 

[D-S]

Fair enough, he hasn't nailed the details, but the sentiment still remains. EG doesn't trust the handicap system.

No they just don't trust some golfers. In the same way that the R&A didn't trust Maurice Flitcroft - attempted handicap manipulation isn't new - sadly its part of the human condition.

WHS need to up its security as making scores easier to enter has a downside as well as an upside.

 

[wjemather]

You may well be correct, but the fine print doesnt really matter in the wider perception of what they did, not that it is relevant to but even very few in an already small minority that enter elite national tournaments. The nub is that EG, while on the one hand promoting the submitting of general play and even approximate/estimated/unfinished cards for the rest of us, explicitly downgraded them compared to cards submitted in competition for entry to their top competitions. When the very mood among many regular golfers is concern that gp cards are open to abuse, and that trust in handicaps is refuced by the gp card process.
The hypocrisy perception of EG is indefensible. And it was a very badly judged PR move.

You are misunderstanding the policy.

Indefensible is a bit strong, but I would agree that it is easy enough to get the facts correct and not have that perception.

 

[The Fader]

We have a lot of adults who pay reduced rates because they can't afford the full rate, they lose some tee entitlement.

I don't think it ridiculous that children who tend to have different time availability because of school hours and who pay a lot less should have some tee time restriction.

Obviously different clubs have different pressures there is not an absolute answer that suits everyone, but having some restrictions on juniors is not intrinsically outdated or unreasonable

Really? That must be a nightmare to administer.

Have to confess I have never seen tee time restrictions mentioned on club websites who have "discounts". All appear to be offering unrestricted membership.Maybe it's in the small print?

So really it's not a discount for those who can't afford it - it's just a form of restricted membership like 5 days.

 

[IanMac]

I have no idea. It's almost 15 years since my lads finished as juniors, so I have little involvement these days.

All I see is an increasing number of juniors at my club which is down to proactive actions by the club and has nothing to do with WHS. Almost without exception the ones I cross paths with are polite and have good golfing etiquette. Exactly what you want from your members. And they are all anxious to get lower handicaps than their mates. Not something that the naysayers would have you believe about all adult golfers!!

No need to ask you the same question.

I don't have direct experience as I don't look after the juniors in my club. I talk to a few older ones and the organisers. The organisers say it's more difficult, certainly to pick the scratch teams, since WHS. They need to come up with creative solutions to that and they are volunteers so not fair on them. The low guys who are old enough to remember UHS are the most scathing towards WHS. The general consensus is that they have nothing to play for once they move on from juniors.

So, yes, I guess no need to ask. Hopefully this experiment is not going to ruin a generation of young golfers.

 

[IanMac]

No they just don't trust some golfers. In the same way that the R&A didn't trust Maurice Flitcroft - attempted handicap manipulation isn't new - sadly its part of the human condition.

WHS need to up its security as making scores easier to enter has a downside as well as an upside.

Seeing a difference between GP cards handicap and competitive cards handicap doesn't mean they think these people are cheating. They are suggesting that it's easier to play well when doing a GP score, aren't they?

 

[Dunesman]

You are misunderstanding the policy.

Indefensible is a bit strong, but I would agree that it is easy enough to get the facts correct and not have that perception.

I am not misunderstanding it. I dont even know it. That is my point. That something/whatever, was implemented to have a distinctuon between a gp score and a competition score, sank their WHS credibility and the confidence in their message to golfers that more scores are better, submit as many gp scores as you can.

 

[Backache]

Really? That must be a nightmare to administer.

Have to confess I have never seen tee time restrictions mentioned on club websites who have "discounts". All appear to be offering unrestricted membership.Maybe it's in the small print?

So really it's not a discount for those who can't afford it - it's just a form of restricted membership like 5 days.

I thought five day membership was relatively common.

 

[wjemather]

I am not misunderstanding it. I dont even know it. That is my point. That something/whatever, was implemented to have a distinctuon between a gp score and a competition score, sank their WHS credibility and the confidence in their message to golfers that more scores are better, submit as many gp scores as you can.

The message the policy reinforces is: "don't manipulate your handicap".
It is pretty much only WHS detractors who want to read anything else into it.

 

[The Fader]

I thought five day membership was relatively common.

It is!

That wasn't the point I was making. But I think you probably know that.

 

[Dunesman]

The message the policy reinforces is: "don't manipulate your handicap".
It is pretty much only WHS detractors who want to read anything else into it.

The message received, is gp scores aare questionable in the eyes of EG.

 

[IanMac]

The message received, is gp scores aare questionable in the eyes of EG.

No pressure, so of course they are questionable from a competitive environment perspective. I don't think they are assuming manipulation at all. They should just come out and say that GP scores are not allowed under handicap 18.